From: THE SPECIALIST To: MAX Subject: censorship Date & Time: 07/23/90 17:39:19 Message Number 6701 M> Nope, I never deleted any of your messages. Manifest bullshit. Oh, wait, I seem to recall that you had a hard disk error...or should I say "hard disk error".... I'm sorry, but I believe that only one or two people ever got to read that message. It was erased, *somehow*. I wish I could remember what it was about. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: JONBOY Subject: Really annoying Date & Time: 07/23/90 17:45:41 Message Number 6702 JB>I PLAY rock-n-roll and Van Halen and has been known to follow Def JB>Leppard from my amp (much to the chagrin of the neibors!). The neigbors? I never was really into Christian rock, to tell you the truth, but I *do* enjoy Van Valen (and Van Hagar) and Def Leppard. I play a little, too (mostly acoustic guitar). As you know, can't really play a great deal of Def Leppard too well on accoustic, so I go for the older stuff, America, Bread, Boston, Pink Floyd, Led Zepplin. I have an electric, tho, and I aspire to actually learn how to use it properly. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: JONBOY Subject: Really annoying Date & Time: 07/23/90 17:57:39 Message Number 6703 JB>...then you can carry your ass back where you came from (tho I doubt JB>they'd want you). My, my, getting a little nasy aren't we? Look, I don't feel like a pissing contest about who's smarter...I was trying to defend the ...well, I was trying to stick up for someone, and I stuck up my foot in my mouth. I got nuthin against y'all. As a matter of fact, when I first went in the Army, (1983) I was sent to Fort Jackson, SC...and the slow twang of a southern accent drove me up the wall. (At the time, I had absolutely NO accent...other than I spoke a little rapidly.) But as time went on, I spent more time around people (there's a good cross section of the country in the Army) and got used to the southern accent. Now that I've been living down here for about three years now, I have gotten used to it (my girl friend is from Pasco...and indication?) and to tell you the truth, the thing that irritates me now is a NY accent. "Hey, Frankie...y'know whatta fuckin mean?" I also realize that just because you may be book smart doesn't mean anything unless you have some common sense to go along with it. Obviously your "hillbilly" friends have both. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: JONBOY Subject: Really annoying Date & Time: 07/23/90 18:07:23 Message Number 6704 Yes, I object to the word worship. I don't like the idea of it. Tell you what, you tell me what you think it means, and I'll tell you what I think it implies. God promises eternal life for the simple act of acknowledgeing His diety and acceptin His terms (oh wow- really tough stuf here - do unto others...) What really is your complaint? Because that isn't all. The bible is filled with things you must comply with and obey. Whether these things are better for me or not is irrelavant. I don't feel like doing them. He's not going to send he police after me, just damn me to eternal hell. Well, I ask you, what choice do I have? THAT is what bothers me. We are supposed to be creatures of free will and be able to make our own choice... SOME FUCKING CHOICE! Worship me or go to hell, but it's your decision. Thanks a hell of a lot. Turtle had a good point in his message. I agree 150%. If you read it, you'll understand. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: JONBOY Subject: Gun Control Date & Time: 07/23/90 18:20:56 Message Number 6705 How do you mean, non-sequitur? My facts were in perfect order. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: JONBOY Subject: relationships Date & Time: 07/23/90 18:22:04 Message Number 6706 WHat is the legal limit? Is it 16 or 18? I go by the law on this one. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: JONBOY Subject: Really translit Date & Time: 07/23/90 18:27:03 Message Number 6707 JB>Ever see a poster called "The Last Great Act of Defiance"? Yes, it was a mouse about to be snagged (presumably for dinner) by a bird of prey. The mouse was flipping the finger at the bird. A most admirable attitude. "For those of us who are about to die, we salute you." Your point, please. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: Algorithms Date & Time: 07/23/90 18:35:23 Message Number 6708 "You're rich!!!" =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject:  Date & Time: 07/23/90 18:38:44 Message Number 6709 T>You know, if we keep agreeing...people are going to get the wrong idea Don't worry. We can continue to disagree about Homos. You will never change your stance, and I am going to continue bashing them...hopefully. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 07/23/90 18:40:53 Message Number 6710 Yeah. Well, I'm sure that those same guys would be repulsed if the women homos in question weren't the images they would like to see. I have seen some porno flicks (horrors!) where there was some of that action, and the women were not the usual run of the mill butches who usually take up homosexuality. Those guys have an idealistic view of things...they oughta take a look at whats going on, not how the women look. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 07/23/90 18:45:53 Message Number 6711 I like the way you put that. You are giving totally unrealistic and improbable scenarios and trying to make your point in that fashion. While it seems unlikely that the entire world will shift in that direction, (deciding homosexuality is normal) it is admittedly possible that if enough people considered it normal, than it could also become moral. (Not to me.) The way this could be accomplished is that the "herd" could impose it's Moral Majority viewpoint on the Moral Minority. (As we've seen happen many times before (ie bumper stickers).) nd And I like the way you called sexual preference trivial and compared it to eating eggplant (which I like deep-fried eggplant, by the way). Sexual preference is trivial. So is my opinion. So is everybody elses. When thier opinions all are the same, they can influence other people. Enough people opinions can dictate to the crowd, politically, and socially. What is morally right is a matter of public opinion. If public opinion said Homosexuality was ok, then it would no longer be considered immoral (by mass opinion)...even though individual opinion might say it is. Like mine. WHat is perverse...same logic. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: HD Date & Time: 07/23/90 18:58:01 Message Number 6712 Well, if you can get the Controller and Hard drive to me, I'll see what I can do. I would be glad to help! =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: ALL Subject: The Pub... Date & Time: 07/23/90 19:11:37 Message Number 6713 Why isn't anyone posting in the Ranean Tales? Thrud, you're due... Rufus, Turtle asked you a question...it's been over 150 messages since anyone posted there! And what are Xon and Wezip talking about? I want to post, but I'd be talking to myself! (I hate interupting.) =========== From: BEATLE To: JONBOY Subject: Really annoying Date & Time: 07/23/90 19:20:37 Message Number 6714 > whatever happened to getting a job... They won't hire me until I'm 16, which is five months away... can't say that I didn't try. =========== From: BEATLE To: RUFUS Subject: expotech Date & Time: 07/23/90 19:28:06 Message Number 6715 > ...return issue three... I think you also have one of my Star Trek TNG tapes... =========== From: JONBOY To: ANGEL Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 07/23/90 19:42:52 Message Number 6716 Now now - that negates Turtles' assertion that Hell (Hades - home of the damned souls) wasn't mentioned. BTW - you know a feller that goes by the name Geden?? He mentioned that he might know you in conjunction with a person named John and a defunct Electronics business. =========== From: JONBOY To: BEATLE Subject: Captain America Date & Time: 07/23/90 19:47:04 Message Number 6717 I thought that Captain America was supposed to come out - did I sleep through it? Was I time warped around it? Was that a parallel dimension that I was visiting? =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Censorship Date & Time: 07/23/90 19:50:31 Message Number 6718 Well, can I rest MY case that I am not the only like minded Christian around - . We aren't all ogres, assholes and vindictive slavering idiots. Bottom line is that nowhere is it stated that what YOU believe affects my destiny. I am bound to discuss and be an active proponent of Christianity by the very nature. I am not however, its' Grand Inquisitor or its' Right Arm of Judgement. Shalom. =========== From: JONBOY To: MAX Subject: relationships Date & Time: 07/23/90 19:56:34 Message Number 6719 Well you're in good company - he mdical profession and the shrinks aren't sure either. As far as homosexual behavior being deviant - it actually IS if you look at it from the viewpoint of propagation of the species - obviously a tough proposition at best. It is also calssified as aberrant behavior by shrinks by the simple virtue the majority of homo sapiens have heterosexual relationships. The connotations that we must avoid are the ones that classify these people as less than human or otherwise undesirable. They have every bit as much to offer society as anyone else and indeed may have a unique perspective to offer us all. Different ain't necessarily bad! =========== From: JONBOY To: BOB ARDREN Subject: Age Date & Time: 07/23/90 20:06:41 Message Number 6720 ??? What brought THAT up? Have we mentioned age? I * would * in fact have to agree that I am bound by the same laws of entropy that YOU are. I do admit to kicking and screaming a bit as it proceeds but again - what brought it up? =========== From: JONBOY To: RUFUS Subject: Calling... Date & Time: 07/23/90 20:11:03 Message Number 6721 Warms my heart to know that it did some good! You don't know how tuff it was to get rid of those issues of Nibble... =========== From: JONBOY To: RUFUS Subject: Really annoying Date & Time: 07/23/90 20:12:11 Message Number 6722 Hey - I personally have started many a couch potato on its' way to fame and fortune - really! I seem to brim with ideas. Do up some flyers that you do errands for older citizens - even stuff like read. I know of several young people that have taken this advice and made quite a bit of money being a "gopher" and/or a companion to elderly. Volunteer work never hurt anyone either and they are more than happy to arrange a ride. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Stuff Date & Time: 07/23/90 20:15:14 Message Number 6723 I dunno about hyperactive! He walked out the bar with barely an intent glimmering behind the famous .75 cal blaster and immediately returned to a slothful position at the bar meditating on a mead. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Algorithms Date & Time: 07/23/90 20:17:25 Message Number 6724 Have you ever read "The Devil & Billy Markham" by Shel SilverStein written as a series in PlayBoy? A more truly irreverent piece has never to my knowledge been written. He would say that harp playing gets boring quick and I would have to agree. I have my own theories. It is surpriseing the number of Christians that have never given a thought to activities in the afterlife. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Pop Quiz Date & Time: 07/23/90 20:20:59 Message Number 6725 Should I worry about gravitational pull, mass of object, velocity of throw and figure whether it EVER comes back (escape velocity) or should I assume a wimpy throw not worthy of manly concern? =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Society & You Date & Time: 07/23/90 20:23:06 Message Number 6726 Interesting line of thought - it could be directly applied to the question of drug & alcohol regulation in this country which I believe you stood in direct opposition to on the same grounds that you now seek to put forward... My point was that the abuse is a result of the prohibition causing the substances to have more glamor appeal - you argued against this point. There are many things that I see as indicators. Evading the trappings of debate (which I attempted to do before with my flag of no-contest) I will state that my "gut-level" feelings say that people have undergone a change for the worse. It is very difficult to support this sort of thought because you can get mired in the trappings of the language and bogged in the LeBrea of semantics. "Worse" as used in the last sentence can carry vast riches of overtone and nuance and is hence a very un- defendable word. I don't want to defend it. I throw it forth as a gasp for comprehension. It would be wonderful if it were an easy situation to understand on the cognitive level - but - I am reducd to the level of blind groping and touch. Personally I feel that the banal imitation of entertainment that pervades our society has produced a society riddled with confused and misinformed people. We no longer have a valid concept of love, sharing, committment, honesty or ideals of almost any kind. They have become twisted parodies of themselves in the hands of people that make their living from sensationalism and glamorizing the mundane. Listen to any sappy rendition of a "love" song to get an idea of what starry eyed prepubescents are fed as "the way things really are". Anyone heard - I think it's Bon Jovi - "Live an die for you ..." ad nauseum "love ballad" making the rounds? I'm sorry = I really think that we have lost the way. Our divorce and suicide rate speaks for itself - especially with our young people. They are disillusioned. They have grown up expecting what TV and radio promise and then reality hammers them down... =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Truth Date & Time: 07/23/90 20:39:31 Message Number 6727 You misunderstand - over 2000 years pass - the message is still the same the promises remain and they are fulfilled. There are no signs that Jesus was a meglomaniac and in fact was a highly respected teacher. The Kabbalists maintain that Jesus was removed from the temple when he made his great debut at 12 years of age. he impressed them so much with his knowledge that he became an Essene- which is a very strict sect that some people refer to as the Jewish mystics. This is where they would have us believe he went - the point I try to make (tho sidetracked) is that he was a) intelligent b) respected c) sane. He stated for the record that he was the Son of God, the Christ. Written record by three of his disciples bears testimony that he rose from the grave after three days to fulfill prophesy. This measly written record would have hardly excited and infused a populace that had only recently demanded his blood and refused to set him free in fact it was put down years after the resurrection. Now - with nothing apparent to gain and his life to lose can you see him give his life with no attempt at defense? Can you see generations of people suffering great hardships and persecution for the sake of a charlatan? Can you see ordinary people with nothing to gain personally dying for this sort of system? =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Really translit Date & Time: 07/23/90 20:50:51 Message Number 6728 Instead you belong and claim kinship with the greatest conglomeration of consumers the earth has ever had the misfortune to bear under. That rape her of necessary ground cover that process our waste carbon dioxide and enrich our atmosphere. That riddle the ground with gaping holes as we plunder the resources with nary a thought to preventing the wound from festering with erosion and carrying precious topsoils into the sea. A society that produces billions of tons of waste that even the vast resources of the planet cannot break down within millenia and thus rob resources that can never be reclaimed. A race that has brought forth such scintillating personalities as Adolf Hitler, Himmler, and Atilla the Hun to enrich the soil with the bodies of their fellow man. Societies that send thousands of their young people to a little-known ex-French province to enforce an idea even more abstract than Christianity, democracy, upon the confused and unwilling citizens of said country. Huh! I'm not to sure that /I/ want to lay claim to that. I won't even go into the argument of understanding the nature of God - we can't even understand our own nature. =========== From: JONBOY To: RUFUS Subject: Polar bear Date & Time: 07/23/90 21:02:18 Message Number 6729 Don't forget the "Thumper ThrumSticks"!!! I'll be there! =========== From: JONBOY To: TREE BEARD Subject: express Date & Time: 07/23/90 21:04:49 Message Number 6730 Sad but true - you will put on weight! A friend explains it that the body is in an alkaline state from smoking and now it is off balance. Water is the great equalizer and apparently the body soaks it in. I've managed to halt my gain but still put on about 30 lbs! Ye gads! And this is when I am eating better (proper) and getting more exercise! I also feel lazier in some respects and have contemplated starting smoking again just to get the engine back up to warp speed - you know the feeling I'm sure. BUT - I don't cough anymore, I don't get winded so easy, my house doesn't stink, my computer stuff is cream and not dull tan like it was AND I'm about $20 richer every week! =========== From: JONBOY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Guitars Date & Time: 07/23/90 21:11:15 Message Number 6731 "In my quest for the ultimate obscene sound I examined all musical instruments. A saxophone comes close, but is not obscene. When I heard my first electric guitar I knew that if ever a truly obscene sound were to issue from a musical instrument - it would come from and electric guitar. A sax may aspire to obscene but only attain sleazy - a guitar has the potential to be truly obscene". Frank Zappa Maybe we can get together sometime - what kind of guitar is it? (in passing - ignore spelling problems unless they prove to be chronic. I get excited and I have a dyslectic keyboard) =========== From: JONBOY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Really annoying Date & Time: 07/23/90 21:18:02 Message Number 6732 Seems to me you have made a choice. Was it hard? Was there any interference? Looks like the system works to me. You have your free will to say "Pond Water!" and reject the system as false with the blithe and easy air of a man who knows he's right. So what's yer beef? Just because /I/ say it ain't so is no reason for a man who truly knows his mind to feel any hostility - I would rather believe a sad shake of the head as you realize the delusions that some people suffer under... =========== From: JONBOY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Really translit Date & Time: 07/23/90 21:23:02 Message Number 6733 Carefully re-read the posts - the intended audience, Turtle, got the joke. =========== From: JONBOY To: BEATLE Subject: Really annoying Date & Time: 07/23/90 21:25:31 Message Number 6734 Bummer! Personally - I lied and started working at a cafeteria when I was 14. By the time my SSAN card got back they said "what the hell..." Be a mogul my man! Nothing's too hard! I will give you a - ready? - GUARANTEED money maker. Get a fixture to sharpen mower blades and learn how to use it. Find out the most common plugs and mufflers that fit the 3 most common Briggs & Stratten engines - we're talking about $50 seed money here. Now do up some flyers saying you will be at the corner of X & Y Saturday the Zth of to do general mower repair/tuneups (oops - I forgot some need points too). Show up with the parts and some oil, WD-40 for sticky levers and such and have at it. I've seen people rake in $100 and have to go get more parts and promise to come back! Lack of experience? Let your age work for you - "Gee mister I've never done that - can you help me with it?" I've seen people practically do the job and still pay a tip on top of the fee! Some people get a swelled chest that they could show you how to do it. I'm dead serious that this works. In a truly good location - I knew a black gentleman in Utah that made $50,000 a year mostly under the table doing exactly this out of an old dilapidated pickup. =========== From: JONBOY To: ALL Subject: JOB Date & Time: 07/23/90 21:37:25 Message Number 6735 Hi-Stat has a job opening for the second shift. the job would entail basic maintenance and pay at a rate between $5 to $6 an hour or so. Give me a call and leave a message 355-9761 extension 2029. JonBoy =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: relationships Date & Time: 07/23/90 22:33:41 Message Number 6736 I think that you are right. There are good guys out there that are not f fags. I hope that I am one of those good guys. You have to work at it I once helped a young lady out because she was in real harms way. She accused me of being a pervert. I just moved her wheel chair out of the w way of a group of customers headed for a one hour sell. For moving her c chair I was submitted to a half hour hurrang from her and my boss. What is this about the people in Florida trying to kill off their social workers with idiotic laws. It is rather hard to carry a caseload and act as Superman. I can not think of one person who can second guess what a distressed mother will do. =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Really annoying Date & Time: 07/23/90 22:44:37 Message Number 6737 Specialist you are on the point and to the point. You are right We should get together and wipe him out(small him not caps). The people have destroyed religion. They are using a mistic force to control our lives. I object to this also. Did you know how religious bel beliefs got started? This would really upset the Baptists if they knew. There would be a Reformation of the Protestant faith just as the o one that occurred in the Middle Ages to the Catholic religion. =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: JONBOY Subject: relationships Date & Time: 07/23/90 23:03:00 Message Number 6740 Wouldn'tit be sttrange if all of us had to wear a cross, or a star of David, or a triangle about our necks. I would look rather strange wearin wearing a cross and a star of david. Hum but that is what our ancestors did in Germany so why not in America. =========== From: RAVEN To: KEN OBER Subject: Marxism Date & Time: 07/23/90 23:59:47 Message Number 6741 >Mandatory recycling /would/ be socially unacceptable if we were not >living in a era where Marxism is socially acceptable.... From this may I assume that you feel that a tie exists between Marxism and mandatory recycling? Please elaborate. =========== From: RAVEN To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Moral/Relavancy Date & Time: 07/24/90 00:11:00 Message Number 6742 >So, my point is this...perverse is a matter of opinion. The more >people who hold an opinion, the more "right" that opinion becomes. >If Hitler had won the war, what would we all think of Jews right NOW? >We might not even have to worry about it, but that's the way we would >the fact that we won was the only thing which makes us realize that he >was 'wrong'. I see; because homosexuality and bisexuality are supported on this board (as the majority of the users believe in freedom of choice) then within the context of this board they are just as 'normal' as heterosexuality. The opinion of the public at large does _not_ really matter to many people (thank the gods), and even in your theoretical case there would be dissidents. The more opressive a society is of a particular group or groups, the more rabid they and their advocates will become. Eventually a vocal enough group will be able to sway public opinion (as is evident by such groups as the 'moral majority', gay rights organizations, and the various ecological groups, eventually eating away at the cause of the opression. =========== From: RAVEN To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Moral/Relavancy Date & Time: 07/24/90 00:27:14 Message Number 6743 >"open" = "weak" PLEASE elaborate, as I feel the need to shread something. =========== From: RAVEN To: TURTLE Subject: Stuff Date & Time: 07/24/90 00:29:03 Message Number 6744 >Like you've really got a problem. How'd /you/ like to be associated >with hyperactive reptile with a short attention span? But you _are_ hyperavtive, do have a short attention span (as a result of the former, but this has many exceptions), and tend to sleep a great deal (and have been quoted as saying "Sleep is for turtles"). Hmm. =========== From: RAVEN To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: relationships Date & Time: 07/24/90 00:39:58 Message Number 6745 >unless you count AIDS victims, but I'm not Hmm. AIDS a disease that now appears to be spreading faster in the heterosexual community (as the gay community has become more educated). >I believe that you gave a pretty good definition for perverse above. >"Deviant from society's norm." Then all BBS users are perverse, as are tri-lingual Americans, as are people who drive VW buses, as are people who speak estonian, . . . etc. I do not think it is necessary to continue. =========== From: RAVEN To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 07/24/90 00:49:01 Message Number 6746 >...and the women were not the usual run of the mill butches who usually >take up homosexuality. Gods I know some people you should meet. They all fall between 6 and 8 on a scall of 1 to 10. =========== From: RUFUS To: THRUD Subject: Polar bear Date & Time: 07/24/90 01:13:24 Message Number 6747 >How'd ya like to have 800 kilos of snowy white fur on your chest... Ohhh, sounds kinda kinky if ya ask me. -or- I dunno, what's the street value of a kilo of snowy white fur? Yes, it's..."Choose your own response. You determine the outcome of this message chain." =========== From: RUFUS To: BEATLE Subject: expotech Date & Time: 07/24/90 01:21:10 Message Number 6748 Oh yes, I do have your TNG tape. Remind me sometime and I'll return it. Actually, I may see you tommorow, or I may not. =========== From: RUFUS To: JONBOY Subject: Calling... Date & Time: 07/24/90 01:23:14 Message Number 6749 I'm kinda fond of that box. Besides storing Beagle Bros. stuff, some issues of Nibble and Core, it now holds my log printouts for my BBS, an issue of "Previews," an issue or two of Omni, and my shirt and socks. And to top it all off, it blocks the mess under my desk! =========== From: RUFUS To: JONBOY Subject: Pop Quiz Date & Time: 07/24/90 01:26:07 Message Number 6750 I'd be concerned about what kinda ball it was. Those new Nerf balls are made to be off balance and they go all over the place. And does the ball have a string on it so it'll come back? Turtle's trying to catch you on a trick question. Ask for diagrams and pie charts before answering this one. =========== From: RUFUS To: JONBOY Subject: Polar bear Date & Time: 07/24/90 01:30:03 Message Number 6751 Nahh, this time I'm doing "Thumper Tenders." Should prove to be a tasty snack. Lightly breaded and fried, you'll have 16 kinds of sauce to choose from. =========== From: RUFUS To: JONBOY Subject: express Date & Time: 07/24/90 01:31:32 Message Number 6752 You know what will really clean up a //e case like nothing else? Zit pads like Oxy and Stridex. I myself used an Oxy Maximum strenth on mine and it cleaned off 5 years of gunk it 2 minutes. I had tried almost everything else to get that dirt out... =========== From: RUFUS To: TURTLE Subject: Smurf Metal... Date & Time: 07/24/90 01:38:22 Message Number 6753 "Who's him?" I ask. I turn around to see a familiar person conversing with the Norse giant. "Oh him," I say, sounding less than thrilled and return to Turtle. "As far as I can figure, IBM, this really large company, is trying to kill me." Turle tries to ask why but I add on quickly "Don't ask why, it's a long story and you wouldn't believe me." Turtle points towards my feet and mutters something about a red light. "What?" I scream still a little deaf from the bongo recital. Turtle slowly says "The red light, on your briefcase, is blinking," and points down again. I look down at the briefcase and see that a red light is indeed flashing. I toss the briefcase up on the bar, and the impact sends bits of wood flying. I look at the LCD by the light. "Phagocytic index low" I read with a puzzled voice. "Wonder what that means" I say to myself. Hitting the briefcase causes it to produce a sickly sounding beep and the display changes to :Energy weapon- 8 metres. I yell to Turtle "duck" as I slide out of the chair and onto the floor, the briefcase following suit. The briefcase falls on my left shoulder and at the same instant a large hole appears in the briefcase and the bar. I look up just in time to see a short something-or-other running out of the bar. Turtle is nearby, also on the floor, muttering "Cool, I wish I had one of those. I wonder where he got his at." =========== From: TURTLE To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: HD Date & Time: 07/24/90 02:56:48 Message Number 6755 >Found an old Racal-Vadic modem... Are you the mysterious person who's been unable to connect, by any chance? On and off for the last week or so someone's been calling and sending a Racal-Vadic carrier, which of course the Qubie doesn't know how to deal with, so it promptly-CLICK!-hangs up. It's been puzzling me for a while. =========== From: TURTLE To: TREE BEARD Subject: express Date & Time: 07/24/90 02:58:45 Message Number 6756 Agreed about the Supreme Court--choosing a man who will help shape the direction of American law for decades to come strictly on the basis of his position on one issue seems like a /bad thing/ to me. Let us hope that George Bush can rise above the political squabbling and hyper- conservative pandering that seems to be his trademark and choose wisely, the weenie. =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 07/24/90 03:01:47 Message Number 6757 >I don't understand how you can say that a mental defect MUST manifest >itself in another way besides the most obvious. I'm not sure how you can call homosexuality a "mental defect." You don't feel attracted to other people of your sex; you don't understand how anyone else could; therefore, your lack of comprehension constitutes a "defect" on the part of someone else? I don't understand your prejudice, but I wouldn't call it a "defect," even though it seems to me to be a detrimental handicap--if I were handicapped in the same way you are, some of the best friendships I have wouldn't be possible. Nor would I classify your fondness for eggplant a "defect," even though I'd rather have my tongue nailed to the side of a 747 than eat the stuff myself (yes, I can tolerate people who will actually--UGH!--/eat/ an eggplant; just DON'T do it around me!) =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: censorship Date & Time: 07/24/90 03:07:10 Message Number 6758 I can vouch for the fact that Donthen, nee Max, did in fact have a hard disk error (although calling it an "error" is rather like calling a nuclear explosion a "significantly exothermic event." It somehow doesn't capture the magnitude of the thing.) Max on the whole does seem more willing to excercise his abilities as a sysop to remove messages than I do, though, although that may be at least partially because censorship and anything even remotely similar to it is a real touchy subject with me. =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Def Leppard Date & Time: 07/24/90 03:10:23 Message Number 6759 >...can't really play a great deal of Def Leppard too well on acoustic.. At the New Year's Eve concert last year, they played an entirely acoustic version of "Bringin' On the Heartbreak" that was positively a joy to behold. That's the exception rather than the rule, but it shows it can be done. =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Que es? Date & Time: 07/24/90 03:13:19 Message Number 6760 >You will never change your stance, and I am going to continue bashing >them...hopefully. Hopefully? HOPEFULLY? What kind of word is "hopefully"? That's a really nasty thing to do to an adjective there, buddy; what did "hopeful" ever do to you? (You know, I hear in England you can be arrested for using the word "hopefully" in public...) You will take this message with the proper seriousness and reform your grammar at once, I hope. =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 07/24/90 03:15:59 Message Number 6761 >...the women were not the usual run of the mill butches who usually >take up homosexuality. Say WHAT?? And what, pray tell, is the "usual run of the mill butch" who "takes up homosexuality?" Are you going on anything apporximating an objective notion of what you're talking about here, or is this your stereotyped prejudice speaking for you? I hate to intrude in your cozy worldview with those nasty fact things, but I happen to know several female homosexuals--in fact, I enjoy a (ready for this?) intimate (gasp!) friendship with a friendly, caring, outgoing woman who is "one of THEM"--and you know, I'll be dang-nabbed if I can come up with one person who matches your cute little stereotype. I can understand the fact that you and I have different views on this particular subject, and I can even understand that you find homo- sexuality offensive and immoral, but please: Don't automatically assume that all homosexuals, or even a significant portion of them will fit your little molds; don't presume to know all about a group of people you yourself will admit that you will have nothing to do with, and particularly don't slander people you don't even know on the basis of an image that is little more than a caricature. While the morality of homosexuality is a matter of opinion, in this particular aspect of this discussion you are factually wrong. =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 07/24/90 03:27:55 Message Number 6762 If you concede that morality is determined by popular opinion, then isn't it meaningless to hold a moral opinion that differs from that of the masses? You seem to use the statement that most people find homosexuality immoral to buttress your belief that it is, in fact, immoral; yet you also say that if public opinion changed, you would still find it immoral. Is your morality dictated by public opinion or not? If it is, then this is a contradiction; if it is NOT, then you are acknowledging that moral opinions are not predicated on popular opinion and that therefore popular opinion does not directly decide questions of morality. You seem to have painted yourself into a corner... =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 07/24/90 03:33:07 Message Number 6763 >...that negates Turtle's assertion that Hell (Hades - home of the >damned souls) wasn't mentioned. Sorry, frayed knot. Hades in Greek mythology was the place to which ALL souls, not those of the damned, went after death. The word "Hades" is Greek, not Hebrew; the Hebrew word for the place of the dead is "Sheol." Depending which translation of the Bible you are reading and which passage it appears in, this word is translated as Hades, Hell (from the Nordic word "Hel," the title for the queen of the under- world), or the Pit. (The Anchor Bible leaves the word "Sheol" untranslated.) In case you're interested, here's what Isaac Asimov has to say about the matter: "Sheol was visualized by the early Isrealites as an underground world to which the souls of the dead departed. It was thought of at first as a dim plac where there was no particular torture, but where there was an absence of joy. Nor was there any distinction between good and evil; all human beings went there after death...The moralization of Sheol, its conversion into a place of torture for the wicked, came later in history." =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Afterlife Date & Time: 07/24/90 03:42:38 Message Number 6764 >It is surprising the number of Christians that have never given a >thought to activities in the afterlife. What's even more surprising--and frightening--is the Christians who /have/. I saw a series of essays once that were supposed to be representative of the "average" Christian's views on life in heaven; a significant number of them were along the lines of "everyone will be exactly the same, there will never be any disagreement, everyone will think the same way, everyone will feel the same way..." If that's heaven, they can keep it! =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Pop Quiz Date & Time: 07/24/90 03:45:18 Message Number 6765 Assume a wimpy throw that doesn't send the ball into outer space or turn it into a fixture of the planet's satellite system; the ball goes up, comes down some distance away. What path does it describe? =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Society & You Date & Time: 07/24/90 03:47:25 Message Number 6766 >We no longer have a valid concept of love... Ahem! Speak for yourself--while I see the point you are trying to make, I also think that you're overgeneralizing something fierce. A concept of love is an intensely personal thing, not something an entire society has, and I happen to think mine is perfectly valid... Minor quibbling aside, while I acknowledge that ours is a confused and rather rude society, I don't think prohibiting naughty bumber stickers is going to strike a blow for goodness and normalcy. Legeslation to ban bumper stickers is so trivial as to not even be noticable when it comes right down to it; it may salve some politicians' consciences or make them feel like fighters for Truth, Justice, et. al, and it may restrict my liberties, but it's not going to address any of the issues you mention in a meaningful way. It is, on a practical level, a pointless and arbitrary restriction that isn't doing anyone any good. =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Truth Date & Time: 07/24/90 03:52:42 Message Number 6767 Jesus was undeniably intelligent, wise, selfless, and truly dedicated to making the world around him a better place. That doesn't make him the Son of God, though he may have believed that he was. Yes, it is possible that he believed himself to be the Son of God and was wrong; that doesn't have any bearing on the validity of his teachings or make him insane. (I don't understand why Christians assume that Jesus couldn't possibly have been a megalomaniac on the basis of the fact that he was a good person; being a megalomaniac does not preclude being wise, giving, caring, etc.) Would he have died without offering any defense? Yes, if he truly believed in and lived by his ideals; you don't have to be the son of god to live and die by what you preach, as Ghandi can attest. Did Jesus really rise from the dead? Hard to say; with little more than the written record of some of his most fanatic followers to go on, it's a contention that can't be tested, and in any event medical technology wasn't really up to today's standards two thousand years ago, and sometimes WE have trouble telling when someone's dead. In any event, I still don't really grok how forgiveness for our sin involves the murder of the being sinned against. "God wanted to cleanse us, so he took our form and allowed us to kill him. That made everything okay." Come again? =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Really backlit Date & Time: 07/24/90 04:01:28 Message Number 6768 Yes, I acknowledge that I am human and therefore a member of a species that has perpetrated a staggering array of crimes against itself and the planet it lives on. However, as an individual, I do not condone these activities. No, I do not believe that the solution to these problems lies in pinning my hope on some abstraction; I think the real answers are somewhat more prosaic. Pinning hope for a better world onto a fiction seems to me like an effort to duck the issue; god isn't going to solve our problems for us, and everything isn't going to get all better once we die. For better or for worse, this is all there is, and we have to learn to mend our own messes. I think you may still be missing my point, though. It's very simple: I believe torture is wrong. This is a moral decision I've made, and one I feel strongly about. Deliberate infliction of pain upn a sapient being is wrong. If there is a diety who engages in that sort of activity, that deity is immoral. I think it's a moot point, since I don't believe there is such a diety at all, but if I were for some reason to feel a need to worship some sort of abstract construct, it wouldn't be one that engages in sadism or anything equally immoral. =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 07/24/90 04:09:08 Message Number 6769 I think so far the dbates that have been going on have been conducted with a remarkable lack of hostility. It's encouraging; I would have expected several of the message threads to have degenerated into ad homenim attacks by now. Now if only we can get the Specialist (that weenie) to admit he's wrong about gays... =========== From: TURTLE To: RAVEN Subject: Stuff Date & Time: 07/24/90 04:14:12 Message Number 6770 >But you _are_ hyperactive, do have a short attention span... ...unless I'm spending six hours removing Kei & Yuri's clothing, of course. My attention span varies directly with how interesting the ting I am engaged in is. =========== From: THRUD To: ALL Subject: Aalborg Date & Time: 07/24/90 06:50:06 Message Number 6771 Vafthrudner is unsurprizeed at the aberrant behaviour of the Bongo man and the extreme rudeness of the williams person. The explosion at the end of the bar was a bit unusual tho - was that a creature of some sort that had.....no, nothing could move that fast. Although the giant had not spent much time among mortals before, he'd found that such conduct was rather common. He discarded the sickening Rumpledrink, not upset so much by having words put into his mouth, but revolted at the childishly sweet drink. "Another round of Slivovitz to cleanse the palate, good sir." The turtle was an interesting one - with his uncoodinated movements and facial contortions he was somewhat reminiscent of the demi-god Belushi. He'd been a good friend, until he came upon bad times, probably due to his assosiation with that Greek fellow, Baccus, sometimes known a Magoo. The Frost Giant turns back to Angel and eyes her intently. Some how he must get back to Aalborg and this one has a ship. "So you like Gjolp. do you? I found her - or she found me- when she was just a cub. She's her own master, but she honors me by following me, especially among men. But upon the ice, or asea, she may be wiser than all of us. Find her some pickled herring from the place called Robarts and you'll have a friend. Making a decision, the Norse colussos continues, "So where do you plan to take your fine ship? Let me be blunt - I've gold aplenty to help outfit her, and I'm as good a mate as ever stood a watch, and Gjolp can smell the North Star. I long to enter Fiord Lim and know that home is near. And there is profit to be made......." =========== From: MAX To: TURTLE Subject: Pop Quiz Date & Time: 07/24/90 10:07:12 Message Number 6772 Ok, then most people would say it travels in the path of a parabola. Really, it's travelling in the path of a half-ellipse (some other sort of "-bola" whose name escapes me at the moment). Or maybe it's the other way around? No, this sounds right -- as much of an "orbit" as it can do without hitting something large (i.e., the ground, unless you threw it REAL HARD). =========== From: MAX To: XTEVE Subject: EPSON$ Date & Time: 07/24/90 10:11:09 Message Number 6773 There are MS-DOS PostScript emulators for Epson printers. Slow as hell, but effective 300 dpi resolution (actually it's something like 270x320, but that's close enough for government work). Actually, even without that, what the printer does is dependent on the software that's driving it. Most programs drive Epsons and other dot-matrix printers at 72 dpi for graphics, but it's trivial to make them print at 144 dpi half-speed, and you can make them print at 288 dpi if you're careful about things. =========== From: MAX To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: relationships Date & Time: 07/24/90 10:15:22 Message Number 6774 I'm not sure that defining perverse as deviant from the norm works too well. After all, since a statistically insignificant number of people like funny animal comics, publish their own small press 'zines or still use CP/M or TRSDOS machines, going solely by that definition I'm one serious pervert. At any rate, being "deviant from the norm"--as those examples show-- doesn't necessarily make one mentally aberrant. And I will reiterate my original point--if someone is a homosexual, that should not constitute grounds for immediately refusing to associate with them, listen to what they have to say, and give them any credit for anything whatsoever. I find advocating such a concept considerably more disturbing than homosexuality. And on a more practical level, I think it can deprive you of knowing people who are -- gasp! -- homo/bi and still worthwhile people. Of course, you'll immediately tell me that if they are homo/bi, they're not worthwhile people. Since you'll never be willing to give any of them a chance to prove you wrong, you'll always be able to believe that. It's a beautifully circular system, quite elegant in the complete unwillingness to ever challenge your assumptions (and let me tell you, you've already thrown out a lot of them which I can tell you are either shaky or flat-out wrong). At any rate, I'm not going to be able to change your mind, nobody on this system is likely to, and you're never going to allow yourself to be put in a position where anything COULD change your mind because you don't want to face that possibility. Perhaps the fear in "homophobia" isn't fear of gays, but fear of having your cherished assumptions knocked down. =========== From: MAX To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: censorship Date & Time: 07/24/90 10:26:18 Message Number 6775 Yes, you're right, there was a hard disk error. I happened to lose about 1000 other messages along with yours. If you believe I dumped my entire message base to get rid of a few I didn't agree with, feel free, but it'd be rather paranoid. =========== From: MAX To: JONBOY Subject: Truth Date & Time: 07/24/90 10:32:31 Message Number 6776 > Can you see ordinary people with nothing to gain personally dying > for this sort of system? Ordinary, no. That doesn't necessarily imply divinity. I've seen the "Jesus must be telling the truth" line before, saying that the only other choices were that he was an evil deceiver or a basket case, and it doesn't really seem to hold water. The people needed a messiah; he gave them one. This has been tried in modern times, too, just without success... but most people in modern times aren't in nearly as{ desperate conditions. At any rate, the none-of-the-above line leaves out the possibility that he was, in fact, consciously lying for altruistic reasons. Someone might challenge that as improbable, but it could be pointed out that it's certainly no less probable as the idea that he was God incarnate -- really, it'd be arguably more probable. =========== From: BEATLE To: JONBOY Subject: Captain America Date & Time: 07/24/90 13:04:16 Message Number 6777 They are still making Captain America. I have seen photos. It's not really shaping up to be anything special. It'll be out someday... Lemme check my film release schedule and get back to you. In other film news, Paramount Pictures has set September 8, 1991 as the release date for "Star Trek VI" WITHOUT PICKING A SCRIPT!! =========== From: BEATLE To: TURTLE Subject: express Date & Time: 07/24/90 13:26:09 Message Number 6778 > ...strictly on the basis of his position on one issue... And he didn't do it. I think that was a wise decision. I don't see any usefulness in choosing a person based on their beliefs or positions on issues.. Hello, we're hiring you to bag ggroceries, what is your position on milk? =========== From: RUFUS To: BEATLE Subject: express Date & Time: 07/24/90 14:44:06 Message Number 6779 > Hello, we're hiring you to bag ggroceries, what is your position on >milk? I myself prefer milk in cartons, not plastic. The milk in cartons should always be bagged with orange juice or other milk, if possible. If not, stick it in with other cold items. The same goes for 1/2 gallon plastic containers of milk. The gallon containers should only be bagged if the customer asks you to, and then only in the big plastic bags. =========== From: RAVEN To: TURTLE Subject: Stuff Date & Time: 07/24/90 19:27:51 Message Number 6781 I believe that was the point where I conceeded that there were some exceptions. =========== From: BEATLE To: RUFUS Subject: express Date & Time: 07/25/90 03:49:14 Message Number 6782 > I prefer milk in cartons, not plastic. Great, your're hired. Now, what do you think of Spam? =========== From: RUFUS To: BEATLE Subject: express Date & Time: 07/25/90 12:29:09 Message Number 6784 > Great, your hired. Now, what do you think of Spam? 1) No, I don't want to work here. I hate the food service industry. 2) My thoghts on Spam? Ask one Mr. Al Yankovic his views, and you'll know my view. In the words of SCVM, Spam: Synthetically Produced Animal Matter =========== From: TURTLE To: BEATLE Subject: Captain America Date & Time: 07/25/90 14:04:41 Message Number 6786 >They are still making Captain America...It's not really shaping up to >be anything special. Really? What a pity; I had such high hopes for it. =========== From: TURTLE To: RUFUS Subject: Things happen.. Date & Time: 07/25/90 14:06:56 Message Number 6787 "Energy weapon at eight...YIKES!" Turtle dives beneath his chair as a brilliant flash strobes the bar and Rufus' briefcase explodes. With half a thought toward acqiring one of those neat guns of his own, the reptile launches himself flat-out toward the source of the energy bolt. "Hey...HEY!" he shouts, and collides with a large, solid polar bear that turns and regards him placidly. "Hey!" he repeats, then elaborates, "Hey!!" Something fast and blurry vanishes through the door and into the street. "All right, that's it. Now I'm pissed!" the reptile declares as he disentangles from Gjolp. "Rufus, dude, what did you DO?? That was an assassin robot. I've only seen pictures of 'em. Someone took a big chance getting it here...did you, um, did..." He trails off mid-sentence and sniffs the air. "Uh, Angel, I think your clothes are smoking. Guess you shouldn't have been standing so close to the briefcase. I bet some- one official would like to know there's one of those things wandering around. Hey! How convenient!" Turtle wanders across the bar toward one of the tables in the back. "Um, Captain Mulligan, I'd like to report an illegal weapon in Raneadhros." =========== From: JONBOY To: MIKE GREENAWALD Subject: Really annoying Date & Time: 07/25/90 19:10:03 Message Number 6788 You know a guy - Spellwind - by any chance? =========== From: JONBOY To: MIKE GREENAWALD Subject: relationships Date & Time: 07/25/90 19:10:48 Message Number 6789 Instead we carry a card that has a strange number on it whereby perfect strangers may be informed of your closest secrets and strange buying habits and various other pieces of misinformation. Progress? =========== From: JONBOY To: RUFUS Subject: Calling... Date & Time: 07/25/90 19:15:15 Message Number 6790 And just think... it has my permanent address on it so that if I ever piss you off *really* bad then you have a place to send the hate mail, letter bombs etc. =========== From: JONBOY To: RUFUS Subject: Pop Quiz Date & Time: 07/25/90 19:16:29 Message Number 6791 You don't have to warn /me/! I saw the gleam in his eye - but I'm on to this trick question game - I was in the military ya know. =========== From: JONBOY To: RUFUS Subject: express Date & Time: 07/25/90 19:18:08 Message Number 6792 Just don't squeeze the chips too hard or gunk oozes out... =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 07/25/90 19:24:02 Message Number 6793 Maybe the character of Hell was only related at a later time. I have attempted for some time to locate works on early cultures of that local (mediterranean, middle east) with not much success. Any good ones (procurable) that you are aware of? while Dr. Azimov may be our honorable chairman - he and i differ substantially on the issue of religion. It is the one area that I feel he is close minded on. I might point out that the ancient Greeks did not consider hell a very desirable place either - otherwise Persephone would not have been in such a tither about being abducted there - what with a three headed hound to ensure visitors got theirs and Charon refusing to take souls that could not pay - effectively making them the early equivalent of restless spirits doomed to wander unsatisfied. Death has always been high on mankinds unpleasant reality list. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Afterlife Date & Time: 07/25/90 19:31:18 Message Number 6794 Face it - those are mental children with no thought except that it will be "good". I'm gonna have a fabulous time. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Pop Quiz Date & Time: 07/25/90 19:32:35 Message Number 6795 Since the force of gravity has a squared term then it must follow a parabola with-holding the effects of atmospheric drag. The effects of air simply modify it to what is popularly called a logistics curve. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Society & You Date & Time: 07/25/90 19:35:43 Message Number 6796 My thoughts were more in lines of generality on purpose. Over generaliz is simply a way of saying that I am not factoring in all the elements of the complex equation that is our society. A simplified equation is useful in modelling the dynamics of a system. As I have learned in chaotic systems sometimes complex behavior can be modelled with simp- licity. Look at the restriction as a statement of policy by the powers that be in that it is a guideline and manifesto of the game rules. It serves a purpose in that it causes more mature minds to examine the provision with an eye to comprehending the whys and wherefores. Maybe even come to the conclusion that these are wise and fair rules for the majority of the people that it serves. To many people see themselves as society and are selfish in their desire that society echo their views. When it doesn't we see the foul flag waving madly and the demand is made that it is an unfair provision. This is necessary to the operation of the machine for without such movements, society would most likely leave out any considerations of minorities in the grand scheme of things. However, it would be impossible to come to a balance that serves everyone. Foul and "obscene" language is used for the purpose of shock and attention getting. It was the judgement that this was inappropriate on the bumpers of cars where it could offend people that considered it "obscene". Where are the masses to counteract that assumption that these "do-gooders" are the bulk of society? =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Truth Date & Time: 07/25/90 19:50:14 Message Number 6797 Let me start at the end first - the reason that Jesus did what he did and why it was necessary is pretty deep theologically and involves the idea of the perfect scarificial lamb to atone for the first (and thus greatest) sin. I would have to agree that megalomania is consistent wit Jesus' teachings as he stressed humility as the desired posture. Megalomania by definition is a desire for the adulation of the masses and thus he should have recapitulated to Pilate in the face of overwhelming public disapproval - which by the way came from the jewish peoples' belief that the messiah would be a king and bring an end to the opression. They WANTED him to be king and he turned it down. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Really backlit Date & Time: 07/25/90 19:56:43 Message Number 6798 YOU believe it is wrong - and within the framework of what you are and the society that spawned you - you are correct in abhorring torture. But you have also admitted that it is equally wrong to inflict your ideas of right & wrong on other cultures that may perceive things somewhat differently. I maintain that God is unknowable and outside your concepts of right and wrong. For the sake of argument - assume there is a god. As he creates the cosmos for his pleasure he decides to populate it with some sentient and not-so-sentient beings. For whatever reason - he decides to let these beings know that he's responsible for their existence. I digress - the question I wish to pose is - given the constraints of the materials at hand it would be possible to make either: a) a sentient that is capable of reproducing and thus dynamic. b) a sentient that is not capable of reproducing and thus has the tendency to stagnate. This necessitates the concept of death to recycle the materials and maintain a balance that can be supported by a carefully planned out interaction of effects. The question is: what are the moral implications for the creator? IS it cruel for allowing death, or beneficient for opting for the dynamic system without stagnation? =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 07/25/90 20:06:18 Message Number 6799 I would like to believe that because we really rspect each others position as long as it is a /thought out/ position. =========== From: JONBOY To: MAX Subject: Defib-nition Date & Time: 07/25/90 20:10:01 Message Number 6800 For elucidation purposes - here is the official defintion of the classic term; " Good Enough For Government Work". Measure it with a micrometer, Mark it with chalk Cut it with an axe. =========== From: JONBOY To: RUFUS Subject: Posiiton Date & Time: 07/25/90 20:14:50 Message Number 6801 Milk for adult human beings is a sham and a fabrication of the American Dairy Association. There is absolutely NOTHING in a glass of milk which is essential to your health. As a mater of fact, adult caucasian brand of homo sapiens are the ONLY race that carry the necessary enzymes to break down the lactin/lactase in milk. Translation: if you are non-white the chances are that a glass of milk will make you violently ill. That's why I used to get a hoot out of the commercial with Eddie Murphey with a babe on each arm in the limo! =========== From: JONBOY To: RUFUS Subject: express Date & Time: 07/25/90 20:19:00 Message Number 6802 Wait - I always heard it was mucus - y'know the gooey stuff that flows out of the can and sticks to everything? =========== From: KEN OBER To: RAVEN Subject: Marxism Date & Time: 07/25/90 22:54:22 Message Number 6803 Yes, I feel anything mandatory (apart from the normal) is Marxism... =========== From: CRYSTAL To: RAVEN Subject: hardware Date & Time: 07/26/90 04:52:58 Message Number 6805 Guess what! I have a gift over here from Tyler. It is a monitor. You can pick it up anytime. The sooner the better. I mean why should you wait. * CRYSTAL * =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Progress? Date & Time: 07/26/90 05:51:27 Message Number 6807 Lessee...by carrying a card with a strange number instead of some sort of icon which reveals your religion, you aren't likely to be shot, placed in a concentration camp, burned, relegated to the untouchable social class, or arrested...yeah, I'd call that progress. =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 07/26/90 05:54:31 Message Number 6808 >Maybe the character of Hell was only related at a later time. By whom? God? If you believe that the Bible as written by the Hebrews is in fact the Word of God, then you cannot believe in the conventional Christian Hell unless you /also/ believe that God didn't get the message right the first time around and had to wait for the Bible to be trans- lated into Greek to rectify the situation. It's more reasonable, I think, to assume that the Christain Hell came about as a result of efforts to translate the Hebrew scriptures into an already-existing Greek framework rather than simply leaving the Hebrew untranslated--a process that tends with every generation of translation to garble the original message a little more. (The KJV represents in some places a third-generation translation!) Regardless of Dr. Asimov's personal views on religion, I think you would find "Asimov's Guide to the Bible" a fascinating and thoroughly- researched work on the subject. There is certainly nothing in there which states that the Bible cannot be the Word of God, and it provides a great deal of background information about the cultures from which Judiasm and Christianity arose. Haven't really found any comparable secular works floating around, and I tend to approach works which start with the premiss "The Bible is absolutely correct and all our research is going to be undertaken with that overriding consideration in mind" somewhat suspiciously. =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Pop Quiz Date & Time: 07/26/90 06:02:11 Message Number 6809 >...it must follow a parabola with-holding the effects of atmospheric >drag. That's the answer that's found in most science texts, but it isn't correct. The path appoximates a parabola for short throws, but in fact it's a fragment of an ellipse--if the object could suddenly gain the ability to pass through the ground, it would go into orbit around the planet's center of mass. The object is /trying/ to go into orbit; the ground gets in the way. For something like a baseball, the difference between a parabola and an ellipse is going to be negligable for all practial purposes. If you're dealing with a larger flight path, a parabola becomes increasingly inaccurate as a way to describe the path--if you're talking about, say, the flight path of an ICBM, then a parabola won't even be close. Of course, if the object is travelling fast enough to get out of the way of the ground, its path becomes obvious... =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Truth Date & Time: 07/26/90 06:10:15 Message Number 6810 >Megalomania by definition is a desire for the adulation of the masses >and thus he should have recapitulated to Pilate... Not necessarily. It's equally possible that Jesus believed himself to be the Son of God and behaved accordingly, and was wrong. The fact that he was wrong would not invalidate his teachings, or his wisdom; the fact that he was a man of integrity would demand that he behave as he did, consistently with his belief. =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Really backlit Date & Time: 07/26/90 06:12:56 Message Number 6811 It is dangerous to ascribe moral values from one culture onto another; that doesn't always mean it can't be done. From where I stand, outside the cultures, I can say that the Third Reich, the Thuggee faith in India, and the persecution of people of Korean descent in Japan are immoral. Yes, it's hard to defend the claim that there is any universal moral code, but it's also hard to support any system which advocates the wide-scale persecution, torture, or murder of large numbers of people as moral as well. To answer your question more immediately: It is not immoral to create a race of sentient beings with limited lifespans. If you want your creation to thrive and grow, it's necessary. That's not my objection. My objection is with the philosophy that everyone who isn't properly reverent or is reverent in the wrong way will suffer through an eternity of physical torture. I won't even go into whether or not god has the /right/ to engage in that sort of thing--I'd argue that if you create something that is sapient and has free will, you no longer own it absolutely and have the obligation to treat it with respect--the fact is most people who believe in hell don't really have a firm grasp of the concept of eternity. Eternal, everlasting punishment--does even a monster like Adolf Hitler actually DESERVE that? The things he did /ended/; the suffering he caused was finite. Would he still be the same man after ten thousand years of torture? After a million? ten million? a billion? There is no justice in torture on that scale; it's simple viciousness. =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: JONBOY Subject: Really annoying Date & Time: 07/26/90 09:37:27 Message Number 6813 No but I bet I should learn who Spellwind is. Can you help me out? My hands do not as fast as my brain so I probabily need to know him. =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: JONBOY Subject: relationships Date & Time: 07/26/90 09:40:26 Message Number 6814 Jonboy closet secretes I do not have. I do not like being labelled as such. Please be more careful. I am and have been a person with good taste and I probably taste good too. I do not hide behind false names What about you? You see I get ticked off at times also. Your label may hurt me so please erase letter 6789 from the board. I do not think that it fits. I would like to open a dialogue with you. Name the topic and we will begin at your invitation. Am confused by the number bit on a card. I am not 666 or any code number close to it on any board. Please explain. Buying habits confuse me, I bought a Fingerprint for my Apple and a super serial card. Please explain your letter I am interested in hearing from you. =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: JONBOY Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 07/26/90 09:56:37 Message Number 6815 Jonboy, The early philosophers in the other schools of thought. The Chjristian side had strange beliefs also. It is rather hard to conceive the earth as a giant cave with images being reflected on the walls. If you had no spirit then you were a mirror image of yourself. A chair was a mirror of the reality of a chair. A dog is a mirror image of what I believe a dog is. This computer is what I conceive a computer should be. Your joke at the end of the letter I just read is in keeping with this philosophy =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: JONBOY Subject: Pop Quiz Date & Time: 07/26/90 10:07:40 Message Number 6816 What? I think that you are probing the unknown. The units in math are just placed there to explain what happens if a change is made. Whether the unit is squared or called by another name is not important. The important factor is that I can use the data to make life a little more understandable ands acceptable to me. =========== From: MIKE GREENAWALD To: JONBOY Subject: Really backlit Date & Time: 07/26/90 10:17:19 Message Number 6817 I vote for death and the change it brings. Without the threat of death you would have never become the man you are. I am glad that you faced death and it is with you. I meabn I am glad you were trained in the skills of death. To practice is to become one with what you do. If you can imagine a action you become one with that action. Try imagining that you are a success in an especially hard indever. You wi;ll become that success. The harder that you imagine the more of a pro you will become =========== From: MAX To: TURTLE Subject: Pop Quiz Date & Time: 07/26/90 10:48:52 Message Number 6818 That is, in fact, what I posted a few days ago, isn't it?.... =========== From: YNGLING To: RUFUS Subject: spam Date & Time: 07/26/90 15:00:01 Message Number 6819 S - some P -prefer A -artificial M -meat The Yngling =========== From: RAVEN To: MIKE GREENAWALD Subject: relationships Date & Time: 07/26/90 19:06:27 Message Number 6820 > Am confused by the number bit on a card. Visa, MC, AmEx ... ect. _Very_ thorough records ov everyones lives. =========== From: V To: DONTHEN Subject: 98/95 Date & Time: 07/26/90 19:48:23 Message Number 6821 I'm afriad this reply may be a bit dated, but it is in regard to 94.9 vs 97.9 in the radio world. I concur with you, 95 is more interesting to listen to. 98 has struck me, recently at least, as being a somewhat harder version of 106.3, or a bit heavier than the piggie. I listen to 95 almost exclusively. The fact is that the radio scene in the T-Bay area is rather dismal. Classic rock formats can be extremely oppressive to new music. I don't know if it's an improvement to hear the same music from twenty years ago over and over as opposed to moronic current music, over and over. Innovation is a hard thing to find, I'm afraid. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: JONBOY Subject: Guitars Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:09:30 Message Number 6823 I'd like to say that I had a Les Paul or a Statocaster...but no, just some cheapie...well, both are. Actually, I paid $150 for my acoustic, and the electric is borrowed...so I don't know how much it cost. It doesn't sound that great anyway. My acoustic sounds really good, despite that it's a Korean Samick 2300F. (Whew!) I think that's a great idea, a get together. What songs do you know? In the acoustic field, I mean... "There;s a lot of things you can get from a Strat, because when you turn it down it doesn't get duller and duller like a Les Paul does. But the really classic Stratocaster sound, I suppose, is that hard biting tone." -- Gary Moore =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: JONBOY Subject: Really annoying Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:15:45 Message Number 6824 Ok, so do you deny my point? =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: JONBOY Subject: Really translit Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:16:33 Message Number 6825 JB>Carefully re-read the posts - the intended audience, Turtle, go JB>the joke. Nah, too much trouble at 300 baud. I'll take your word for it. Sorry to butt in. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: JONBOY Subject: JOB Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:19:00 Message Number 6826 Do you work at Hi-Stat? What do you do? =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: MIKE GREENAWALD Subject: relationships Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:20:19 Message Number 6827 Good point. What a bitch that you have to be harrangued just for trying to be a good samaritan. What do you mean about second guessing disstressed mother? =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: MIKE GREENAWALD Subject: Really annoying Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:22:19 Message Number 6828 MG>Did you know how religious beliefs got started? Well, I thought I had an idea, but I'd like to hear what you have to say... =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: RAVEN Subject: Moral/Relavancy Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:25:20 Message Number 6829 YES! That's right, you stated and paraphased what I had stated beautifully! The conclusions you drew were logical and in order. For this you are awarded the "Turtle Certificate" for clear, logical and concise thinking. (Keep at it, and you may make your "Donthen Degree" in no time!) (Incredulous gasp from the adience at large) "Did he agree with Raven? But Raven said that Homosexuality and Bisexuality were as normal as Hetrosexuality!" Yes, on this board. So, I have no problem agreeing with that. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: RAVEN Subject: Moral/Relavancy Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:29:39 Message Number 6830 S>>"open" = "weak" S>> R> PLEASE elaborate, as I feel the need to shread somthing. R> Ah, well, at the time I was pissed off, and I was equating OPENminded with WEAKminded, but now I can see that was pretty stupid, because it doesn't really work that way...nolo contendre. Mea culpa. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: RAVEN Subject: relationships Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:32:45 Message Number 6831 R>Hmmm. AIDS a disease that...be spreading faster in...hetrosexual comm Thanks to the homos...who spread it to start with. R>Then all BBS users are perverse, as are...ect. I do not think.... Not quite. You missed my point. I didn't say "different" I said "deviant". Please note the connotations of the two words. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: RAVEN Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:36:43 Message Number 6832 S>>...and the women were not the usual run of the mill butches who S>>usually take up homosexuality. S>> R>Gods I know some people you should meet. They all fall between 6 and R>8 on a scall [sic] of 1 to 10. R> On *your* scale. And why would you like me to meet them? =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:44:39 Message Number 6833 T>You don't feel attracted to other people of your sex; you don't u T>understand how anyone else could; Wrong. I can understand that easily. It is caused by a faulty switch somewhere in the main uP of the person affected by this malady. What I don't understand is how you can equate this sickness with a preference/nonpreference for eggplant. The two are totally different situations. Homosexuality is not a "preference", it's a sickness. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: censorship Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:49:36 Message Number 6834 T>I can vouch for the fact that Donthen, nee Max, did in fact have a T>hard disk error... Ah, yes, so can I...but not in this particular situation. We all know that he had several during the time that "Wyvern's" was up.... =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: Def Leppard Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:51:40 Message Number 6835 T>...they played an entirely acoustic...but it shows it can be done. Thank you for correcting me. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:54:39 Message Number 6836 Sorry, it just seems to me that I have met more women homosexuals who fell into "my nice little stereotype" than any other. Although, upon further reflection, I haven't really met that many.... Tellya what...you prove me wrog and I'll admit to your "fact". Also, while we're at it, show me a homo man who isn't slightly effeminate, and I'll drop that "swishy" stereotype, too. Hopefully. (Used as adverb, to describe the verb "drop"...ie, hopefully drop [something]) =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 07/26/90 21:59:40 Message Number 6837 I did not say that MY morality was (or would be) changed by popular opinion. Consider this: Society as an entity. Say, popular opinion changes, so Society's opinion changes. Obviously, when a person is brought up with certain beliefs, his opinions and values are not going to change overnight. Especially on ones that he feels strongly about. If public opinion changes (and stays changed) then the new generations coming up will tend to reinforce this opinion...whether it's morality, o or opinions about another country, or whathaveyou. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 07/26/90 22:11:35 Message Number 6838 T>I think so far the dbates that have been going on have been conducted T>with a remarkable lack of hostility. I agree. A big round of applause for all of you intellectuals. T>Now if only we can the the Specialist (that weenie... Hey! T>...) to admit he's wrong about gays... Fat chance. Besides, why would you wnat to do that? To turn me into a conformist? =========== From: TREE BEARD To: JONBOY Subject: express Date & Time: 07/27/90 00:48:45 Message Number 6839 Yes, all of the above... But I'm cycling, and it helps to get my metabalism running just a bit higher. So, now (it seems) that I am not quite so easily winded and can keep up a high cadence longer. School is just around the corner, so Ill get the info for you soon. So, this is just a chemical thing? Water retention? I think the oral habbit has something to do with it also. Always having something in your mouth. Food or cigarettes... Tree (P.S. I need that money for school, so I doubt Ill start again, else I may get kicked out of my townhouse.) =========== From: TURTLE To: MIKE GREENAWALD Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 07/27/90 01:13:35 Message Number 6841 >A chair was the mirror of the reality of a chair. A dog is a mirror >image of what I believe a dog is. A perfect form is the image of what you're trying to explain. A Def Leppard song called "Pour Some Sugar On Me" is the Platonic archtype of that particular type of music. Plato was a bore. =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 07/27/90 01:19:26 Message Number 6842 >Homosexuality is not a "preference," it's a sickness. A difficult premiss to support, I think, unless you're defining the word "sickness" as "that which manifests itself as a tendency that I don't like." =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 07/27/90 01:20:56 Message Number 6843 >...you prove me wrong and I'll admit to your "fact." Difficult to do, since you have already stated that you won't associate with someone who's homosexual or bisexual long enough to get to know that person. >...hopefully drop [something]... Like, say, the OED Handbook of Grammar and Usage [on your foot]. =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Moral/Popular Date & Time: 07/27/90 01:23:13 Message Number 6844 >If public opinion changes...then the new generations coming up will >tend to reinforce this opinion... ...but the old generations will cling stubbornly to their prejudice, neh? I'm sorry, I simply cannot accept bigotry as "moral," regardless of how popular that bigotry is. =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 07/27/90 01:25:14 Message Number 6845 >Besides, why would you want to do that? To turn me into a conformist? But my dear sir, by your own admission you /are/ a conformist! The only evidence you've provided to support your judgement of homosexuality so far is "everyone else thinks that way"! =========== From: BEATLE To: JONBOY Subject: express Date & Time: 07/27/90 01:58:38 Message Number 6846 >...the gooey stuff that flows out of the can and sticks to everything? You must mean Ken Ober's "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Retromutagen Ooze" (I am NOT making this up!) The ooze comes in a little trash can, and it has a little glow in the dark turtle in it. It says things on it like "Mutate like a real Ninja Turtle!", "Non-Toxic" and "Will not stain carpets, but willstick to human hair, some carpets, and certain breeds of household pets. May cause hands to be covered with a layer of slime." Of course, I slightly exaggerated the last quote. I am however really upset that the label does not inform you that the colloid slime inside actually will LIQUIFY! I discovered this unique property one day while trying to open the ooze, which was oddly stuck shut. As you may guess, when the lid of a container holding liquid is quickly jerked off, some of the contents will splatter, namely on to my shirt. =========== From: BEATLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 07/27/90 02:16:04 Message Number 6847 > ...how can you equate this sickness with a preferance... I think that we would be able to decide that if you presented your medical proof (not your personal opinion) that homosexuality i in fact a sickness... =========== From: RUFUS To: BEATLE Subject: express Date & Time: 07/27/90 03:40:46 Message Number 6848 We made some slime in AP Chemistry at the end of the year (yea, after the tests are over, we make slime, get to play with 18 molar acid, burn flesh, shirts, and countertops). Fun fun fun. =========== From: AJ-- To: BEATLE Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 07/27/90 15:12:31 Message Number 6849 I have just read the message reguarding "Homosexuality", your statement says that you believe Homosexuality to be a "sickness"?? I beg to differ with you, and YES, I have the Medical Background to prove I am more than qualified to answer this question. I have been in the Medical field for over eight years with me specializing in Pysch. Labeling some one a "Homosexual" is not only dangerous, it is also un proven. How can you tell if someone is really a "homosexual", unless you are one? Now I dont mean to imply that you are one, just that there is no clear outline avaliable to man to detect a "Homosexual" in our society. Being Gay, of Homosexual, is a choice and a choice some make themselves. True ther e are some influences in society, but all in all its a personal choice. I welcome Feedback. TopGun Strikes Again..... =========== From: BIG LEW To: BEATLE Subject: express Date & Time: 07/27/90 15:47:47 Message Number 6850 Is this stuff for real and where can I purchase it? Have you tried to see if it will stick to your hair? I would like some - your feedback is appreciated. Thanks, =========== From: RAVEN To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: relationships Date & Time: 07/27/90 18:41:18 Message Number 6851 >Not quite. You missed my point. I didn't say "different" I said >"deviant". Please note the connotations of the two words. Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, p. 347 Deviant \-ent\ adj (15c) : Deviating esp. from an accepted norm. ibid, p. 353 Different 1: Partly or totally unlike in nature, form, or quality : Dissimilar Random House lists them as synonyms. I think that you missed _my_ point. Because we all differ from the accepted norm (by being BBS users) we are all different and deviant. Perhaps your dictionary has a slightly deviant definition (ask Donthen). Before you argue symantics verify your arguement. =========== From: RAVEN To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 07/27/90 18:53:04 Message Number 6852 >On *your* scale. And why would you like me to meet them? Because they will fall into the same range on yours (figuring your girlfriend at about 6). =========== From: RAVEN To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 07/27/90 18:54:46 Message Number 6853 >Homosexuality is not a "preference", it's a sickness. As is monogamy, if you take rate of occurance as the indicator =========== From: RAVEN To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: I did not say Date & Time: 07/27/90 18:58:25 Message Number 6854 >I did not say that MY morality was (or would be) changed by popular >opinion. But you did say that morality was determined by popular opinion. Please explain the reconcilliation of these two apparently contradictory statements. =========== From: RAVEN To: TURTLE Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 07/27/90 19:01:20 Message Number 6855 >Plato was a bore. But the legions of philosophers that spent years writing books on Plato are even more boring. =========== From: RAVEN To: TURTLE Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 07/27/90 19:03:22 Message Number 6856 >Like, say, the OED Handbook of Grammar and Usage . . . Turtle, you're getting anal retentive again. =========== From: RAVEN To: BEATLE Subject: express Date & Time: 07/27/90 19:06:03 Message Number 6857 >The ooze comes in a little trash can, and it has a little glow . . . Sounds like the same slime that was marketed about 5 years ago, but with a 'glowing' difference. =========== From: V To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 07/27/90 19:51:34 Message Number 6858 To interject, show me a heterosexual male who isn't slightly effeminate. Fair is fair, I suppose. No member of one sex is totally seperated from the opposite sex. You know how the saying goes - one is only 95% male. Hey, it all boils down to X vs. Y. =========== From: MAX To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 07/27/90 20:57:41 Message Number 6859 > Homosexuality is not a "preference", it's a sickness. *** FACTS AHEAD *** Nobody knows what "causes" homosexuality. The only definition that goes beyond the surface (ie, attraction to people of the same sex) is that put forth by the American Psychatrists' Association, which in effect states that it's a mental sickness if and only if the person afflicted with it is dissatisfied with his/her condition. This is, by their own admission, a pretty useless definition. Scientists have put forth their own theories as to what "causes" it; sociologists have put forth other theories, as have philosophers and theologians. There is NO evidence that any one of them can present to make it an open-and-shut case. Therefore, everything about homosexuality, and what it is, that you, Turtle, me, or anyone else has said here must be an... OPINION. When you say that it's a sickness, that's your opinion. Likewise, when Turtle says it's a preference, that's his opinion. Who's right? Who knows. Obviously neither one of you are going to convince the other one they're wrong. (And as you know, Turtle's opinion is pretty much shared by me on this topic.) My objection to your views on this subject, from the start way back when, haven't been based on the fact that you have an opinion different from mine. They've been based on the fact that I consider abusing people on the basis of their sexual orientation, regardless of whether they were born with it or came to it by choice or if they will burn in hell or whatever it is you believe, to be discrimination, and I find discrimination to be as morally repugnant as you apparently find homosexuality to be. Incidentally, on what basis DO you condemn homosexuality to a degree that it's morally correct for you to dismiss everything someone who is homo/bi could ever do, say, or think and treat them as subhuman? =========== From: MAX To: AJ-- Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 07/27/90 21:09:28 Message Number 6860 *Buzz!* Your message makes perfect sense, but the person you were addressing it to, Beatle, was REPLYING to someone else, challenging them to show proof for their contention that homosexuality was a sickness. Beatle didn't make that assertion himself; your message should have been directed at The Specialist.... =========== From: TURTLE To: RUFUS Subject: express Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:00:38 Message Number 6861 Perhaps you should ask your chemsitry professor how to make oobleck-- it's a weird white cement-like substance with a VERY low melting point. If you stick your hand in it, it will liquify around your hand (because of your body heat) and then solidify again and your hand is stuck. It's also really slimey when it liquifies. =========== From: TURTLE To: RAVEN Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:03:53 Message Number 6862 I dunno--Plato himself was a master of the art. His writings are far, far more boring than the lesser scribblings of his modern-day disciples could ever HOPE to be. It's not just his writings, either; his views on Utopia, his ambitions, his personal beliefs, even his very life: BORING!!! Plato is truly the God of Boredom. =========== From: TURTLE To: RAVEN Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:06:03 Message Number 6863 I am ALWAYS anal retentive about grammar. It stems from having two very good, if conservative, English teachers. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Progress? Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:08:45 Message Number 6864 I would refer you to the Electronic Gazette - I believe the December one - on Amelia's board as to the nefarious uses that the SSAN is put to now. Wait till they get the hang of it. As it is they can make you an outcast in the land of credit where being an untouchable is very bad. What happens if something happens where martial law is imposed? the SSAN is the perfect vehicle for keeping track of people. Personally I don't like it and wish there was a way to work without it. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:13:10 Message Number 6865 I tend to stay away from secular books also - too much bias that I am capable of myself is built in. As far as later elucidation on the natur of Hell - how can God change his mind if as you say - it was never really spelled out? I was going on the premise that it was never really understood or expounded upon in the OT days and that it wasn't until the minor prophets and Jesus that more of its nature was revealed. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Pop Quiz Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:16:54 Message Number 6866 Methinks you draw at very fine straws... why not decribe a spiral from the decaying orbit that is the result of an almost geostationary orbit? =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Truth Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:19:08 Message Number 6867 I have a book that you may find fascinating as it contains much fact and a minute amount of religion - I loved it ; Og Mandino "The Christ Commission". The premise is that of a writer that started out to prove that Jesus rose on the third day as a "good Christian" He stated for the record that as he searched he became convinced that in fact it had been a hoax. The imaginary stage for this is a Johnny Carson show. I won't spoil it but he gets the chance to investigate himself. This is a truly interesting book. =========== From: JONBOY To: TURTLE Subject: Really backlit Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:23:45 Message Number 6868 A lot of Christians have gripped with the "problem" that you state. Many believe as you and theorize that after a "taste" of hell they can be given another chance. My question is: who would be so foolish after to get it wrong again - sounds nice in theory. I just have to file it away under "the nature of God" sort of philosophy. The entire book of Job deals with this question (coincidentally it is my favorite book) and is a real puzzle to understand. =========== From: JONBOY To: MIKE GREENAWALD Subject: Really annoying Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:27:39 Message Number 6869 Spellwind - self-imposed master of the Non_sequitar. =========== From: JONBOY To: MIKE GREENAWALD Subject: relationships Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:45:16 Message Number 6870 My name is Jon and I have left my full name on here (Smith) several times. I had to re-read your post to see what the hell you were referrin to! /I/ was referring to the ubiquitous Social Security Card that is used and abused for anything BUT your "social security". As far as specific dialog - jump right in on anything - if someone wants to debate/discuss it with you they will. I have been informed that you perceived my message as an attack - nothin could be further from the truth - If and when I attack you it will be for probable cause and unmistakable in its content - so rest easy! A Benevolent JonBoy =========== From: JONBOY To: MIKE GREENAWALD Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:50:08 Message Number 6871 I presume you are referring to Plato's concept of "forms" and that an object "participates" in a form to be realized as a form. I confess I am lost on your interior cave analogy... =========== From: JONBOY To: MIKE GREENAWALD Subject: Pop Quiz Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:51:55 Message Number 6872 Cut! You are in fact getting close to receiving one of "THOSE" kinds of messages from me.. Please talk a little sense. The units are assuredly important otherwise you would have no idea of what the result MEANT! Furthermore the terms will tell you the shape of the curve and by taking the derivative much v=can be gleaned as far as roots of the equation, minimums and maximums. May I ask what your level of education is? I don't want to be rude if you simply haven't been exposed to higher mathematics. Maybe a short dissertation would help you to understand. =========== From: JONBOY To: MAX Subject: Pop Quiz Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:57:19 Message Number 6873 Hey - I didn't cheat - I hadn't got that far yet! (heehe) =========== From: JONBOY To: YNGLING Subject: spam Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:58:01 Message Number 6874 I thought that was spelled DILDO? =========== From: JONBOY To: V Subject: 98/95 Date & Time: 07/27/90 22:59:26 Message Number 6875 I would love to hear of your concept of an innovative format for a radio station. =========== From: JONBOY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Guitars Date & Time: 07/27/90 23:01:02 Message Number 6876 Lemme see - I've been out in left field for awhile but I seem to remember some CCR, Simon & Garfunkel, Byrds, Egles, Bob Dylan and all kinds of off the wall stuff. Didn't you say you went to the Doghouse (or was that Yngling)? They have some instruments down there .I have a Fender Duo-Sonic, Gibson MelodyMaker and a Ibanez Pro series electrics and 2 Yamaha 12 strings. My Duo-Sonic is like a Strat but only 2 pickups. =========== From: JONBOY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Really annoying Date & Time: 07/27/90 23:05:20 Message Number 6877 I forgot what it was and I'll be damned if I'm going back a bazillion messages to find it. On grounds of nonexclusivity I will unconditionally (as a personal favor y' unnerstand!) deny your point. =========== From: JONBOY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: JOB Date & Time: 07/27/90 23:07:29 Message Number 6878 They call me an Electronics Technician but I design and build production equipment for them and when I can be corraled - I even fix stuff that's broke - be it mechanial or what. I do programming in C and use mostly IBM PC clones to run MetraByte I/O cards to do the dirty work. Otherwise I use Programmable Logic Controllers and program in ladder logic or Boolean if it happens to be an Omron controller. =========== From: JONBOY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Moral/Relavancy Date & Time: 07/27/90 23:12:00 Message Number 6879 Latin & Latino in the same breath? =========== From: JONBOY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Bias in bias Date & Time: 07/27/90 23:13:49 Message Number 6880 Rock Hudson perhaps? I can't recall him coming across with a limp- wristed lispy style - seem to recall that women swooned with considerabl vigor over him in his heyday. The problem with stereotypes is that somewhere there really is a model for it. Too bad for the rest of the group this one individual will justify the stereotype. My friend Harold for example is an absolutely PERFECT Jewish stereotype. I keep kidding him that I should rent him out to comics doing research on Jewish Jokes. My first (and still dearest) heartflame was Jewish and you would never even guess unless she told you. =========== From: JONBOY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Really placid Date & Time: 07/27/90 23:18:28 Message Number 6881 Yes! Conform! Conform! You can feel your brain turning into butter... =========== From: JONBOY To: TREE BEARD Subject: express Date & Time: 07/27/90 23:19:31 Message Number 6882 I really wonder about the strength of the habits that lead to smoking or are developed while a smoker. I used to light 'em right and left and just let 'em burn to a stub without ever puffing on it. Man I would be hauling ass on a mental problem (like programming) on a rare occasion that it required extra mental effort I would grab the smoke and just puf away till I had it sorted out. Now I believe those were "props" and I have a hell of a time getting things done right now because I have removed my "cue cards". It is like the predictable behavior stimulated a certain type of behavior from myself - now I'm semi-lost as I attempt to forge new work habits. I actually have a pack of smokes to deliberately temp me and remind me. =========== From: JONBOY To: RUFUS Subject: express Date & Time: 07/27/90 23:25:50 Message Number 6883 Be a real enterprising sort and find some slime mold on an old dead\ tree. Neat stuff - it actually will ooze of its' own volition around a jar looking for food - as an added value - some species actually glow in the dark... =========== From: JONBOY To: AJ-- Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 07/27/90 23:28:11 Message Number 6884 Are you /sure/ you've been a shrink for that long? Last /I/ heard it was a hell of a case for pro-genetic causes and there was no choice involved. You either participated or you did not - but the fundamental nature could and /would/ not change. My qualification? Many many friends that are gay, my best friend is a shrink and I used to be an aide for the Psych department chairman at my Alma Mater as an experimental lab techncian responsible for implementing and program- ming computerized testing of subjects. =========== From: RAVEN To: TURTLE Subject: boring Date & Time: 07/27/90 23:51:33 Message Number 6885 >Plato is truly the God of Boredom. Ever read Aquinas? =========== From: RUFUS To: TURTLE Subject: express Date & Time: 07/28/90 00:12:05 Message Number 6886 >chemistry professor how to make oobleck-- If I ask her how to make oobleck she'll probably say something like "What!?" Do you have another name for it? =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: gates of... Date & Time: 07/28/90 00:31:19 Message Number 6887 I would still maintain that the advent of the Christian concept of Hell is more likely to be the result of the efforts of theologians from non-Hebrew cultures attempting to "map" the Hebrew religion onto a framework of beliefs that already existed in the non-Hebrew culture than to a new revalation by God--even if you take the Bible at face value, there still isn't anything in the New Testament to suggest that all sinners who die unsaved are condemned to an eternity of torture. In fact, in a lot of ways that idea doesn't really seem terribly congruous with the early Hebrew view of the universe at all; throughtout the Bible, it's suggested (and stated) several times that the favor or displeasure of God is expressed /on earth/, not in the afterlife, and the concept of Hell just doesn't jive with that philosophy. Even to a person who does, in fact, believe in Christianity, it seems it would be more logical to view Hell as a cultural artifact rather than a late-breaking revelation by God that somehow missed getting transmitted the first time around. (In fact, according to several sources I've run across, including both an article about religion appearing in Time magazine and Asimov's Guide to the Bible, most Christian theologians do not believe in Hell.) =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Pop Quiz Date & Time: 07/28/90 00:38:27 Message Number 6888 If the ball were capable of somehow passing through the ground and continuing along its path, it would describe a stable orbit that was nowhere near to being geostationary--by the time it came back up to its apogee, it'd be nowhere near the point on the planet's surface from whence it was thrown. Most decaying orbits, in fact, decay because of external influences--friction from the central body's atmosphere being the number one cause of an unstable orbit to begin with. On an airless body, that presumably wouldn't be a factor. =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Truth Date & Time: 07/28/90 00:41:13 Message Number 6889 Sounds like an interesting book; where can I find a copy? =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Caves of... Date & Time: 07/28/90 00:42:25 Message Number 6890 Plato created the cave analogy to explain his concepts of "perfect form." It goes something like this: Imagine yourself in a darkened cave with a 90-degree bend in it which you can't see around. If there is a light source in that section of the cave and someone were to hold a chair before it, from your vantage point you could see the shadow of the chair cast upon the wall but not the chair itself. The chair represents the "perfect form" of that object, and the shadow is that which exists in the real world; ie, all existing chairs are but shadows of the "perfect form" of a chair, which we can never see. As a philosophy, this one is untestable, has no particular consequences which can be expected to manifest themselves in the real world, and has the unique signature of Plato's--it's both slightly silly and BORING. =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Pop Quiz Date & Time: 07/28/90 00:46:56 Message Number 6891 >Maybe a short dissertation would help you to understand. e to the U dU dx takes the place of normal sex. (Wit and Wisdom from Calculus, Chapter 1.) =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: express Date & Time: 07/28/90 00:50:29 Message Number 6892 Myxomycophyta--the common slime mold. My all-time #1 favorite fungoid life-form. They're just so utterly weird, you almost have to wonder if the blasted things evolved on this planet. Part plant (sorta), with definite animal characteristics (kinda), and if they get tired of behaving like a single organism they just kinda fall apart into a mass of indipendant amoebas with no particular predelection for one another. And they can reproduce either way. =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: Defective... Date & Time: 07/28/90 00:54:20 Message Number 6893 >Last /I/ heard it was a hell of a case for pro-genetic causes... Really? Last I heard (psyiological psychology class two years ago) the genetic model was falling out of favor--nobody's been able to find a gene or set of genes that's linked with homosexual behavior yet, plus it seems to follow a pattern that's not in any way similar to classical inheritance patterns (even if you assume it's double-recessive). It also doesn't seem to occur at any particular point in a person's (or other organism's) development and there doesn't seem to be any particular set of environmental triggers that will cause it to express itself. On the other hand--it /does/ appear that sexual preference is largely (not always) involuntary and that it's usually (not always) associated with predictable changes in the hormonal makeup of the individual in question, although it's not clear if that /causes/ the behavior or is the /result of/ the behavior. I think the jury's still out on this one. =========== From: TURTLE To: RAVEN Subject: BORING Date & Time: 07/28/90 00:59:49 Message Number 6894 Have I ever read Aquinas? Fortunately, no, thank God (so to speak), but I've been exposed to some of his philosophies. A rather boring man himself, there. =========== From: TURTLE To: RUFUS Subject: express Date & Time: 07/28/90 01:01:01 Message Number 6895 Sorry, the only name for the stuff I have is "oobleck." I believe it's made with corn starch, but I'm not sure. =========== From: RAVEN To: TURTLE Subject: oobleck Date & Time: 07/28/90 08:23:58 Message Number 6896 All the ingredients are available at Publix. Semisolids are fun! =========== From: XTEVE To: MAX Subject: EPSON$ Date & Time: 07/28/90 09:33:46 Message Number 6897 Yo Max, thanks for the info. Let me know if you find anyone with an Epson... -Xteve =========== From: AJ-- To: JONBOY Subject: Shrink Date & Time: 07/28/90 10:02:24 Message Number 6899 Never said that I was a Shrink..just said that I was in the field. =========== From: AJ-- To: MAX Subject: THanks Date & Time: 07/28/90 10:03:47 Message Number 6900 THanks, sorry Beatle then, my message where directed towards The Specialist. ===========