- - - - - - - - - Subject: George Orwell Keywords: Orwellian Fear BigBrother Summary: Welcome to 1984 (whoops,1992) From: terminus@mindvox.phantom.com (Len Rose) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 11 Jul 92 18:39:23 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system George wasn't wrong, he was just a bit off in his dates... Welcome to Amerika. Len Rose - - - - - - - - - Subject: Orwell From: klarry@mindvox.phantom.com (Larry Kessler) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 13 Jul 92 15:59:48 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system What exactly is happening that makes you say that? Things arebad, but they're not any worse then the depression or times that have come before. hard times comes and go..... Tough people survive. Larry - - - - - - - - - Subject: Well... From: dfish@mindvox.phantom.com (Drowned Fish) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 13 Jul 92 22:35:16 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Getting sent to jail for the heneious crime of theoretically sending Scoop a copy of login.c in email, is a fairly crazy thing. It's sort of like being sent to jail for a year for xeroxing a chapter from a book. A cookbook with a recipie for Apple Pie... Half the idiots in C 101 classes are writing login.c code, to have your life trashed because of that is not apt to make you feel good about the government. Fish - - - - - - - - - Subject: login.c From: avocado@mindvox.phantom.com (The Masked Avocado) Message-ID: <9kXVNB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 92 00:42:19 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system I think you're stretching it a bit there, fishmeister. login.c, although not a complex piece of code, is not taught in C programming 101. However, for an experienced Unix guru, it is simple to write a login.c clone from scratch. There are even public domain login.c clones available from the net. The problem is that Terminus had a copy of AT&T's login.c, a proprietary piece of software. Len is not guilty of anything, not even copyright infringment, because he didn't release AT&T's login.c, he only kept a copy for himself on his hard disk. The man was sent to prison for a year on trumped-up charges because the judge and prosecuters don't know a login.c from wart on their penis. This is a classic case of what happens when an evil corporation (AT&T) uses the technical ineptitude of the judges and prosecuters to seek vengence on an innocent individual. For those of you who don't realize it yet, those with money basically own our court system. You better not make enemies with any medium to large sized corporation unless you can afford to hire a good lawyer when that corporation uses the court system as a weapon of persecution against you. avocado - - - - - - - - - Subject: ... From: phiber@mindvox.phantom.com (Phiber Optik) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 01:51:10 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system What do you mean? :) - - - - - - - - - Subject: what this is about From: sbranch (Kim Clancy) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 09 Mar 93 08:38:15 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system I (and others) asked mindvox to start this forum to give LE and others aplace to meet and discuss topics. I have been getting folks together for awhile and wanted to find a public place I could send folks to meet instead of me taking all this time to run around and patch folks together. there are numerous LE types that would like this exchange to occur and I'll et them know its now open. I belong to a private :) security forum with a bunch and wil pass it on. Probably one of hte best areas I have seen set up for this was on Gheps bbs. It was called Security and the Security Impared (you figure out who is whom). Anyway if there is anyome specific yo uwould like to see on, let me know and I will see what I can do. Btw, I'm not an LE type, but manager a computer security unit for the Federal Gov. but this is being done on my own and the gov. doesn't endorse my actions...and other standard disclimers... - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: what this is about From: cudigest (Jim Thomas) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Mar 93 00:16:36 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system In principle, it's a fantastic idea to get both sides talking. The reality is that those who could most benefit are those least likely to participate. The Secret Service is a prime example of a group that seems unable and/or unwillng to learn by its mistakes. Local/regional "computer-crime" enforcers seem enmeshed in the control mentality, and have neither incentive nor willingness to understand the other side. It's discouraging. Nonetheless, any attempts at dialogue are worthwhile. Struggle's as long as history, and change requires persistance. The trick is to get the LE types on-line and, if not talking, at least reading. But, from what I've seen from LE documents, what the read is more likely to turn up in indictments rather than be the fodder for thought. Two questions: What kinds of topics might LE be willing to discuss, and what kinds of changes are likely to occur from the discussions? - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: LE etcetera.... From: alex (Alex Zelchenko) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Mar 93 11:50:31 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system When Len Rose was an unwilling guest in a federal facility, an individual (Kim--Bill V, whom you met when you spoke at a hacker meeting at Loyola U in Chicago) sent him books. Some went thru, others were shipped back with a note that no more than 5 books were permitted at one time. Emannuel sent 2600 to someone -- returned as unsuitable because of content. Prisoners undergo heavy censorhip. On the other hand, how about checking this out: Connected Ed, Inc., offers on-line courses in media studies in coooperation with the New School for Social Research in NYC, a fully accredited university. Courses are not cheap, and computer and typing skills are essential. Applicants for these courses should be fully prepared intellectually and educationally to work in a fast moving intensive course that does 3 credits work in two months -- like a college summer session. Would the Bureau of Prisons and the individual wardens (they are the bosses!) permit it? Would the government pay for the education? Would the school waive tuition? Worth investigating. Connected Ed recently moved to White Plains, NY. Directors are Dr. Paul Levinson and Tina Vozick. They are also on the internet: tvozick@dcunsn.das.net - - - - - - - - - Subject: LE: The reality... From: falconer (Steve Copold) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Mar 93 11:07:11 EST Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system I've just returned from 3 days of "training" in which I got to share a classroom with 250 LE types...FBI, SS, IRS, USPS, State Troopers, local cops, LE consultants, TELCO Security, and even the infamous Bill Cook of Sun Devil fame was there. I've got a few things to say about the experience. I'm not gonna say them all right now. I need to let my head clear so I can approach this without the really bad feeling I've got about the situation. I shall,, however, throw out a few tidbits at this point. I spent a lot of time talking with many of these folks...They are very nice, very ordinary people. They are not a bunch of badge carrying demons. What they are is: 1. Badly under-financed (especially at the local level) 2. Badly under-equipped 3. Badly under-trained 4. (and most importantly) They are scared to death of what they do not understand...and that is almost anything having to do with computers, networks, and people like us. 5. They believe that the EFF and CPSR are the enemies of good civil order. 6. They definitely do not have the same regard for the 1st and 4th ammendments to the constitution as most of us do. 7. They are essentially good people that are trying to do their jobs under an incredible handicap of ignorance...and very, very few of us are doing what needs to be done in the way of providing them with a decent education. (I know, I know! It's not our responsibilty...Well, if you value your freedom in cyberspace, you'll make it your responsibility.) -Falconer (more when I've recovered) - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: cpsr evil? From: cudigest (Jim Thomas) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Mar 93 23:07:58 EST In-Reply-To: <5ycJ1B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system hayden writes: >I have been >wondering if there is any way to get prisoners online. I know the idea >seems anathma to the authorities but I have read that prisoners who get >education are less likely to return to prison. A nice sentiment, but an unlikely reality. In a minimum security prison or a work-release center there might be ways to do it. But, the security/control game is simply to strong a mentality to break down. In a time of fiscal crunch, the costs are also too steep for most prisons, because they have a difficult time providing essential services. The changes would be best to implement some kind of on-line experiment as a model project in a fed level 1 or 2 institution. I can't imagine a state system trying it in the near future. The evidence on the impact of prison education on recidivism is inconclusive. There's no evidence that significantly reduces it, but there's also no evidence that it doesn't. It's a fairly complicated thing to measure because of all the intervening variables. In my own view, prison ed (and by implication most "rehabilitation" programs) are not as effective as the should/could be because they are not adequately implemented. Rehab fails because those who are responsible for putting into action have failed. - - - - - - - - - Subject: FOIA and Files From: tc (Dave Banisar) Message-ID: <1VqR1B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 93 10:43:59 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system I've been doing FOIA work for a while now so I feel fairly confident in saying that if you request your file under FOIA or the Privacy Act and they dont have anything , it is realy damm unlikely that they are going to create anything. They are highly understaffed (on purpose probably) and just do not have the time a resources to do that sort of work. In addition if you then followed up with another request, they would have a file that they would have to givbe to you and explain why they started it. - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: FOIA and Files From: sbranch (Kim Clancy) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 21 Mar 93 15:10:11 EST In-Reply-To: <1VqR1B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Dave, where have your work3ed that gave you such experience. I know if you requested FOIA information from us, we wouldn't thnk twice about it, but we are not LE and encourage folks to review their info. I have heard it different from other places though...but only heard. Thanks for the straightening up :) I need a kick in the head now and then - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: FOIA and Files From: cudigest (Jim Thomas) Message-ID: <3PPs1B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 93 23:16:25 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Dave does legal work with CPSR and is routinely involved with FOIA stuff. He's highly knowledgeable in computer-related law. >From my experience, his comments are accurate: The "check for your files and get a file" is largely an urban legend. Perhaps the myth started because request usually generate a form response indicating a *reference* file number. This has been interpreted by some to mean that a surveillance file was initiated, which is simply not true. Most agencies are short handed and simply don't have sufficient staff to maintain files, let alone analyze them for "intelligence" value properly. However, this is in part what makes files so dangerous: There is little accountability, rules for use, or checks for accuracy, which leads to some bizarre interpretations as witnessed in some of the Sun Devil cases. The trick in asking for a file is to give sufficiently detailed info to help track down the info. Those tracking files down are generally functionaries who operate on the basis of routine procedure, and the more detailed a request the more likely they will be able to provide accurate info. The catch, though, is that if one has been involved in explicit misdeeds involving an on-going investigation, too much revelation could be dangerous: "I hacked IBM's computers and ripped off $2 mill. I was wondering if you've started an investigation on me...." - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: LE: The reality... From: kcit (Ken Citarella) Message-ID: <4P5w1B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 93 08:30:50 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Hi, everyone. I am one of the LE types our sysop has promised would show up. I am a prosecutor from NY. In case you have heard of Pumpcon, I'm the guy. I tried to look through the postings to date, but haven't gotten too far. There is one comment I'd like to second. LE people are people, common ordinary people. They have families and bills to pay. Like some computer enthusiasts, they are extraordinarily dedicated to their vocations. Unlike anyone else, they have a sworn duty to enforce law. That duty, obviously, must be tempered by discretion, and discretion, particularly in high tech areas is knowledge dependent. They do need more training, lots more. That training has to be technical in nature, as well as personal, as in mindvox and this forum. I will be happy to answer any questions from a legal or personal perspective anyone chooses to pose to me here. Just be patient, I have to do this around my real job. Ken Citarella - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: LE: The reality... From: kcit (Ken Citarella) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 93 13:59:26 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system bwp, It is quite obviously the cops job to do both. Any LE type takes an oath to defend the constitution. Protecting civil rights is as important, and maybe more so, than catching bad guys, and CLEARLY civil rights must not be sacrificed to catch bad guys. In practice, it is a lot rougher than that, for many reasons. Not all LE are wonderful people. The job has power, and power, whether it is financial, physical, technical, intellectual, etc. is a great attraction to some people. A cop who abuses his power is no better than a techie who abuses his and does things only because he or she has the technical skill to do so. Ken - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Introduction From: tc (Dave Banisar) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 93 17:30:30 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Ken, I would generally agree with you about the only cases we hear are those that the press plays up but in the case of the computer community, I would disagree. When something happens here (eg a bust), we hear about it and usually have discussed it to death before the press ever writes about it. The press isnt filtering us the news, its more like the opposite. Dave - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: hacker stuff From: sbranch (Kim Clancy) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 26 Mar 93 08:47:27 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Personnaly, I have never questioned why folks help me, rega{dless of their titles (btw, I did mean, why do they help secure systems). It just seems to be the first question I am asked...its totally of the subject usually, but I *always* get asked. I usually start my presentation explaining that I'm gonna teach security thru hacking and tha folks proficient in penetratin techniques..hackers...have taught me...I explain the technical stuff we wil accomplish and without fail...the questin comes up....I don't like these "analysis of hackers personality reviews." To me its utter bullshit and exctly what lends to the stereotyping I attribute to causing alot of this "us" and "them" crap..{why read a review on someone's personality...just go out and meet the person and make your own conlcusions. That's what I have done for the past year or two and why I wanted this forum...it makes that bunk useless, but might put some folks out of work too...it also breaks down the fear that is caused from the ignorance these things promote... - - - - - - - - - Subject: Stuph & Irony From: erikb (Chris Goggans) Message-ID: <04511B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 93 12:29:44 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Talked to CERT today. Ed said he had not read the file before redistributing it (as he has always done in the past) I informed him of the new way. He asid he would either register or ask to be removed from the list. Fair enough. He apologized for the error. No big thing. Unfortunately (hehe) a reporter who I had spoken with prior to reaching Ed, to whom I had mentioned the ironic situation of CERT pirating my warez, had already called Ed. :) Hewasn't too pleased about that. As funny as it might be, I don't think CERT BUSTED FOR PIRACY will be on any headlines, I think the reporter friend of mine will keep it to himself now. (So that I don't see Phrack Editor Nailed by FBI acting on CERT suspicions in any headlines either) ahem. IRC: irc is about as hot as they come gang. The FBI & Secret Service have both admitted to using IRC as a vehicle for gathering information to follow cases, and open new ones. I've got an agent on audio tape admitting that. on a teleconfernce Ray Kaplayn had a while back. Anything you say openly (probably even in PRIVMSG) is going into a buffer somewhere. Especially the #hack, #phreak, and #warez. Tough shit, eh? Don't say anything in IRC that you wouldnt say in a courthouse full of FBI agents, because it may end up being read back to you IN ONE! Mr. Controversy ->ME - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Stuff... From: erikb (Chris Goggans) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Mar 93 05:28:56 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system A lot of these raids were based on FEAR as much as they were based on IGNORANCE. Perhaps ignorance gave way to fear as people like Cook sat up late at night wondering when we were going to press the button and launch the missiles from our bedrooms. It is nice to see that the ignorance is slowly (very slowly) fading away. Maybe the fear will too. At least until Forbes little cyberpunk monthly rag appears with Bridgette at the helm as managing editor. That should continue the mainstream misinformation and hacker-bashing for at least a few years. I hope it fails miserably. Chasin & I have already been approached for an "interview." Fuck that. ->ME - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Fear and Ignorance From: erikb (Chris Goggans) Message-ID: <8Vs01B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 04:44:06 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Kurt: As far as cops planting evidence like nickle bags amongst back issues of 2600... Well, I don't know if things have progressed (or regressed) to that as of yte, however from my own experience during the raids back in 1990, when Tim Foley and his cronies had thoroughly ransacked my apartment and failed to find any hacker evidence, they began searching my kitchen and under the sink and through jumbo boxes of laundry detergent looking for drugs. One chemicaly astute SA made the comment, well, unless he's making it with drano, there isnt anything here. (He was looking at lye, ethyl ether, & ephedrine hydrochloride...any takes on what that makes?) When they failed to find drugs, they tried to check the validity of my ownership of an arcade-size pac man game, and THEN gave me hell about some street signs we had around the apartent (IE: no dumping signs over the toilets, one way signs pointing to the bedrooms, etc...) I think this WAS FAR out of the jurisdiction of the Secret Service and was just an excuse to try to nail me for something, ANYTHING since they had taken time out of their busy lives to coe over that morning and violate me. Never underestimate the evil of a cop with a mission from God (or Bellcore) ->ME - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: novell hacking stuff From: sbranch (Kim Clancy) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 22:30:45 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Spoke with Hugh Miller today, he puts out PGP digest. He is gonna join the forum and can tell us EVERYTHING you ever wanted to know about PGP and Phil Zimmerman...well maybe not everything. So ofr those askingquestions about it, just hang around in a week I recon he should be here by then. Lets see, also got an email from Lance Rose, he was gonna try to get on and discuss teh legality of this irc capture stuff, and asked the FBI if they may wish to drop in....let you know how it goes - - - - - - - - - Subject: About LE From: kcit (Ken Citarella) Message-ID: <462B2B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 93 09:59:38 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system I took a quick look at some postings since I was last here, and am glad to see that not all LE people are perceived as evil despotic lunatics. Neither are the phone companies. They spend a lot of money to create their systems and they sell their services to earn a profit. Some peopel may prefer a world where telephone, indeed all telecom srvices are free to all, but that is not the American way, at least not now. When the telecom infrastructure is paid for entirely out of taxes (which none of us, or few, would be too happy about) and defined by the courts or legislature as a free fundamental right of US citizenship, then all services will be free (if you ignore the fact that taxes pay to create, maintain, and operate the system). Reality is that private copanies pay to create, maintain, and install, and that those systems, as any private property, is entitled to protection as a matter of law. Changing whether or not those systems should be for free or for higher is a plitical question, not a LE one. In the current scheme of things, LE has an obligation to put all sorts of computer abuse into the hopper with all the other crimes it pays attention to and to give it the priority each given LE agency deems appropriate. Impact of EFF? Useful a few years ago as a consciousness raiser and a definer of issues. Their actual positions on searcha nd seizure are hopelessly naive and inexperienced. They are better off and do more for their members, both official and spiritual, by evolving into the lobbying group they are becoming. Can LE be self improving? Sure, LE is made of people, as is any other organization or industry. Moreover it is one which frequently sees itself as the guardian who is unappreciated and abused whilw trying to do a thankless job. But, any person or group changes once the need to do so is perceived individually from within or imposed upon from without. No different than the big shake up at IBM. Everyone paying attention saw the collapse coming as their product line became irrelevant. They saw it last, but eventually caught on. But you can bet there were people on the inside of IBM who were crying a lonely voice for years. The same is true for LE. There are voices inside and outside to be listened to. Evolution comes, it always does. It can be far better helped along by friendly approaches than denunciations. It is hard for be to scan all the dozens of messages on this forum and frame a response. If anyone wants to pose something especially for me to resp[ond to, please uise the MAIL facility in mindvox, and I'll try to post the response here for everyone to share. OK? It would save me a great deal of time. Thanks. KCIT - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: About LE From: erikb (Chris Goggans) Message-ID: <9qRc2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 93 19:12:19 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system In most respects, we are as our experiences have shaped us. I personally have NEVER met a SS agent who I would consider competently trained to work computer fraud cases. My bias has shaped the way I think and talk about this group. I have, however, been overly impressed with the FBI. Not only have they seemed perceptive enough to know the difference, but they build a case before kicking down doors. Amazing how effective that is. Too bad different agencies don't share information. The first time I know of them cooperating was the MOD cases. Those might even stick. I have also not run into many local LE types who seem happy or interested in justice. Most seem to be looking for a reason to whip out the club, or write a ticket. Why this is, I have no idea. A good friend of mine wants to be a cop. I told him he needed to try to get into the special services dept to work on computer related cases, since he would be the ONLY expert austin could ever hope for. He knows more about our world than any cop could hope to. But he said that he had no desire to take his computer knowledge to work with him. He wants a foot patrol in the crack district so he can shoot people. This sentiment is probably shared by most of his academy class. Another example of penis extension I guess. :( ->ME - - - - - - - - - Subject: Firewalls et. al. From: erikb (Chris Goggans) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 09 Apr 93 12:28:44 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Kim: I don't think you need to If someone had a firewalled network, any peer-to-peer networking would almost exclusively reside as a LAN under the firewall. Otherwise, if a machine was allowed to pass through just in a peer-to-peer mode, it ain't much of a firewall. :) Besides, any network worth a damn will have a single host as the sole internet connection & a well configured router to strip out everything. This would take care of that problem. And anyway, as far as I'm concerned, anyone sending anything other than tcp/ip over the wire on their WAN needs to be taken out and strangled with a pair of John Drapers socks. Keep that silly pc connectivity to a teeny lan nestled quietly away somewhere. ->ME - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: bootleg's cd.. From: thug (Murdering Thug) Message-ID: <4qeX2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> References: Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 23:41:02 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system lgas (Laughing Gas) writes: > I trust that came out okay. That is the result of an alliance between > Scanman and Bootleg. Scanman, being himself, stabbed Bootleg in the back, > and released this without Bootleg. Bootleg is now trying to gather a > larger amount of text files from people to put out his own disc for a > lower price, with more information. That's just great, so Bootleg and Scanman and now LOD Communications, all three ruthless corporate powers, will be competing for the motherload of profits to be gained by distributing old 40 column textfiles that no one really gives a shit about in the real world except 10-20 people who were around back then AND still care enough about it today AND have CD-ROM drives in order to actually buy these wonderful products. You know in business school they taught us that one must try to capture a niche in the market, but somehow I don't think 30 people in United States is exactly a large enough niche. Umm.. what would happen if I put Bootleg's CD-ROM into my portable music CD player? Would I hear hypnotic static which would turn me into an idiot capable of typing in only 40 columns uppercase? Would I become a peglegged wonder idiot savant and conquer the multimedia market with my awesome CD-ROM products? Would my head explode? Inquiring minds want to know. Thug - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: LE: The reality... From: mnemonic (Mike Godwin) Message-ID: References: Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 01:03:37 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system kcit (Ken Citarella) writes: > The SJG case is often cited as an example of things > gone wrong. What the public never hears about are all the cases handled > quite calmly with no constitutional ruffles and with appropriate > dispositions. Remember, you only hear about what the media choses to > tell you. Ken, what you say here is true, but it's also the case that the public never hears about countless cases that are handled badly. For example, the public doesn't hear about how Bill Cook, who knew better, called the E911 document a "program," or how that "program's" valuation was inflated, or how three people were sentenced based on that false valuation, or about how no one was ever made accountable for that false information. And that's only one other case. There are countless more. --Mike - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: novell hacking stuff From: mnemonic (Mike Godwin) Message-ID: <8oJX2B4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> References: Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 01:27:54 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system sbranch (Kim Clancy) writes: > here by then. Lets see, also got an email from Lance Rose, he was gonna > try to get on and discuss teh legality of this irc capture stuff, and > asked the FBI if they may wish to drop in....let you know how it goes Kim, I don't see any inherent legal problem in the government's capturing IRC text. They shouldn't even need an authorization order if they're simply online in IRC. They would need one if they were intercepting IRC by tapping phone lines, and, possibly, a search warrant or subpoena if they wanted to seize a stored IRC session. (I say "possibly" because "electronic communication" may or may not include IRC sessions.) --Mike - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: About LE From: mnemonic (Mike Godwin) Message-ID: References: <462B2B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 01:31:50 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system kcit (Ken Citarella) writes: > Impact of EFF? Useful a few years ago as a consciousness raiser > and a definer of issues. A few years ago, EFF didn't exist, Ken. > Their actual positions on searcha nd seizure > are hopelessly naive and inexperienced. And prosecutors are hopelessly power-mad and despotic. But now that I've gotten that out of my system, please detail which "actual positions" on search and seizure are "hopelessly naive and inexperienced." The federal court in the Steve Jackson Games case didn't think we were hopelessly naive to think the Secret Service could have determined whether SJG was a publisher or could have searched SJG's systems in something other six months. Perhaps you should be explaining to Judge Sparks, Ken, how hopelessly naive he is. In the meantime, let me point out that law enforcement seems to be hopelessly naive and inexperienced at recognizing the applicability of the Bill of Rights and of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act to electronic forums. Ah, feel much better. --Mike - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: LOD communications From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo) Message-ID: References: Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 08:54:39 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system sbranch (Kim Clancy) writes: > Bootleg, don't know him but got a call about his project and Scanmans. > He is on our bbs (scanman) and told me he has already cut a cd-rom of > files. Guess he started the venture with bootleg but not sure what > happened....that is a story in itself and one I'm not suppose to > know...so of course, I don't ;) Somehow the picture of 2 40ish guys stabbing each other in the back over some 40 column uppercase posts reprting credit cards and codes is too funny to even take seriously. I remember that in Mondo Vox was going to be putting all those files and buffers online, is it still? I see the archives have around 20 megs of files in them and a skeleton for nearly 30 boards and buffers in there but they appeared and then remained empty. LOD gets to sell them off Vox? Will it go to the LOD retirement village like the LOD message says at the menu :) $%$%$%$%$%$%$% ($) Ali Baba ($) %$%$%$%$%$%$%$ - - - - - - - - - Subject: LOD Communications... From: erikb (Chris Goggans) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 11:03:43 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Thug: If you don't want it, don't buy it. You hold a minority opinion, however. Others: What lodcomm is trying to do is completely different from what Scanman & Bootleg is doing. They are putting together text files & electronic magazines... we are just dealing with bbs posts. Perhaps there is a limited market for people who want to see what was going on way back when...so what? This isn't "some big corporate power" going for a huge horizontal market of all computer users...this is a few friends trying to make their apple ][s and atari 400's work again to try to dig up their silly past. :) We ahve no real intention to fleece the masses, nor to make a big killing This is more of a project for US...the only real reason to charge even the pittance that we have determined was to recapture the costs involved in doing this. In any case, I totally dig the results... ->ME - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: LOD Communications... From: thug (Murdering Thug) Message-ID: References: Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 12:19:38 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system erikb (Chris Goggans) writes: > Thug: If you don't want it, don't buy it. You hold a minority opinion, > however. This may be true, I mean, just look at how many people subscribe to 2600 in order to read articles several hundred magnitudes lamer than stuff I've seen in LODTJ or Syndicate Reports, or the posts from OSUNY. Well, I'll just wait and see, but from all logical and rational viewpoints it seems that a market for these items is pretty small in terms of real world customers. Then again, small is a relative term. It all depends on how you define large and small. > Others: What lodcomm is trying to do is completely different from what > Scanman & Bootleg is doing. They are putting together text files & > electronic magazines... we are just dealing with bbs posts. Perhaps > there is a limited market for people who want to see what was going > on way back when...so what? This isn't "some big corporate power" going > for a huge horizontal market of all computer users...this is a few friends > trying to make their apple ][s and atari 400's work again to try to dig up > their silly past. :) We ahve no real intention to fleece the masses, nor > to make a big killing > > This is more of a project for US...the only real reason to charge even the > pittance that we have determined was to recapture the costs involved in > doing this. > > In any case, I totally dig the results... > Hey, if you're having fun, and making a little money at it, that's cool. I just can't imagine guys like Bootleg and Scanman thinking they will be making a killing in the market, and thus justifying stabbing each other in the back over the immense profits to be made. I have come to realize that some people have no fucking grasp on reality. Thug - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: hacker stuff From: cudigest (Jim Thomas) Message-ID: <3osy2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 17:39:49 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system >From what I've heard of the LOD project, it sounds exciting. It will provide a good resource for those who weren't involved in the mid-80s, and might be a good addition to libraries and other archives. I'm looking forward to seeing it. It fills in the gaps of posts over that period. If the USSS has the messages, why shouldn't the public? - - - - - - - - - Subject: Additional Comments From: lodcom (LOD Communications) Message-ID: <2k9y2B7w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 23:23:00 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Ali Baba: Regarding the Mondo/Vox article etc., the project actually got started when some of us started dusting off our old disks for PAT/VOX. After talking it over with PAT late last year (we have been working on this ever since) it was determined that they were way too busy with the upgrades at Vox to do anything with our disks and printouts. After we realized how much work was involved we had to make a decision as to what direction this project was to take, if any. The people involved in this project (quite a few actually) are not in high school with nothing better to do (not that we think anyone reading this is) and therefore value what little spare time they have. Its one thing to ask people to give up most of their free time, its another to say that they won't be compensated for all the effort. So a "pittance" as Erikb says, is being charged not so much for the information itself (information wants to be free!#@$&1), but for all the effort and costs (well over $1000 believe it or not) to bring the information to the masses errrr all 30 people in the U.S. [as Thug says ;) ]. As for the LOD Retirement Village 8+/, a lot of the money will be recycled for 2 other projects whose aim is to provide additional historical background on the Computer Underground Community. And although it may not seem like much, at least half of the sales of the Metal Shop Private BBS Message Base will be donated to Knight Lightning's (Craig N.) legal defense fund...after all, they helped too. More of a non-profit organization than a "ruthless corporate power".... The project's aim in addition to 'making our old machines work again' as ErikB says, is to document some of the history of the 'dark' portion of Cyberspace. No one is exactly sure how many people really care, but from the large response we have received due to ads in 2600, Phrack, and CUD, there appears to be plenty out there who want to see what went on. An interesting point is how many people on the planet even have messages from some of the first (if not THE 1st) phreak/hack BBS systems such as 8BBS (Circa 1979/80)? We have found only one source through all our contacts. And that source has them on a TRS-80 machine that wasn't powered up in 6 years or so. He has been dutifully transferring messages at 300 baud (Modems still go that slow?) in his spare time (very little as he manages a TV station and has a family). To recapitulate on the main goal--it is to continue to scrounge around for all these old messages (which are really quite interesting since we have basically excluded C0DEZ B0ARDZ) and provide a fairly comprehensive look at the use of BBS's for Underground Activities. Unfortunately, without the support of the public, it may not be possible to sustain the effort due to the costs involved but we will see how things play out. It's funny but a lot of people today forget that back then we did not have 14.4 Kbaud modems and 250 MB hard drives. Most messages we have were downloaded at 300 baud onto 143K disk drives, with each file usually no larger than 15K in size (And we LIKED it! Where's my funny looking Hat? ahem) Its not like anyone called up all the bbs's one after the other, downloaded the complete message base in 10 minutes, saved it into one file per bbs, and is now selling them. Not that anyone here is implying that either. Deckard: "quicktime interviews with the old hackers, etc." One thing we did do is track down a lot of the system operators of the boards or those who were on the board and knew inside details. We twisted their arms to write a "BBS Pro-Phile" [Ala Taran King's Phrack Pro-Phile] specifically for this project. The BBS Pro-Phile provides various background information on the different Boards and interesting stories related to them. In addition Philes online were added to the message bases if we could find them. Ie: all the Osuny "bulletins" are included in the Osuny message base (circa 1982/3 and over 370 msgs thus far). Regarding CD_ROMs: It was decided to just provide the Message Base Files in compressed format on 3.5/5.25 diskettes. Since we aren't interested in selling stuff that is readily accessible on the Internet (ie: electronic newsletters, etc. via ftp.eff.org) the volume of material really doesn't warrant a CD. Besides, we would be pricing the stuff out of the range of many people which is something we didn't want to do. In addition, how many people have CD_ROM Drives? More every day but they still aren't as prevalent as diskette drives. Hope we aren't repeating ourselves too much, a lot of these details are described in the LISTING due out in 1-2 weeks. Guess the Round-Table is Elite since they get the scoop on this before the public does :) "finger lodcom" for a bit more additional information on the project if you like. And if anyone wants to help, let us know. - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: speaking From: deadboy (The Dead) Message-ID: References: Date: Fri, 16 Apr 93 12:12:22 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system siva (The Destroyer) writes: > One beer?!?! What a cheap fucker. On the other hand, judging from your > checking account balance, >I< should buy >you< the beer. *DISCLAIMER* > That was, of course, a totally false, tasteless one-liner throw away joke > just now, and it bears no relationship to real life. > > What is the conference? > > And actually, whenever I see PAT, I think of Kroupa. It's like, "we've > been dealing with PAT...", like they're in awe of the fact that he picked > up the phone <> > I'd be in awe too, any time I ever call and ask its "Patrick has left the building, he will be back at approximately the end of time, try leaving him mail expect a response no later then 2001" I haven't been dealing with PAT :( But when I visited the office he grunted at me at least three times and said "oh, cool" before going back to looking out the window. Dave didn't even grunt, he was snoring, and Bruce was in Jamaica. Chris and the other Dave were cool though, but no one cares. Not to drift way off topic or anything like that, but whatever happened to that 911 "LOD" guy in canada and New Jersey. Did it ever get resolved some way? And do any of the online NOT-THE-LOD (erikb, digital, lex, marauder, insert name here) have any comments on what that was all about? The Dead Shall Rise - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: okay.. From: digital (Patrick K. Kroupa) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Apr 93 18:46:58 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system [Re: L0D In 9i1] There were two guys, one in Canada, and Dan in NJ. I have no idea who did what or why or when or whatever, but in the last few years the only thing Dan was InTo was recreational soaring, not HaKKinG 911. Neither one of them was ever in LOD. LOD doesn't exist anyway, it's just a conceptual, transitional, kinda ethereal wavy, fuzzy sort of thing; soon it'll be a band, or start a swim-wear line; eventually it will move to florida, wear silly pants and talk about the old days a lot. Patrick - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: okay.. From: thug (Murdering Thug) Message-ID: <7sq52B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 93 22:44:41 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Which do you think would sell better, mens swimsuits with the LOD logo, or the Spur Posse logo? I have a little money to invest, and I'd like to make a quick buck off of somebody's name. Is LOD trademarked? I'm surprised Goggins hasn't done it yet. Well, at least "Spur Posse" isn't trademarked, so I might go with that, unless Chris wants to cut a deal with me on the LOD name by becoming a partner and spokesman for LOD Swimwear. Hey, why narrow our horizons, how about LOD/Wear.. Yeah, that's it, that's it mama... Let's rock... I really like what Chris is doing with the LOD "Internet World Tour" t-shirt. I'm thinking it would look insanely chic as a silver on black Elvis jumpsuit version with flashing blue LEDs, sort of like a cyberpunk rhinestone cowboy... Can you dig it Chris? I can see it all now... What do you say? Chris, if you turn down the deal, maybe MOD/Wear is where the real money is at.. It's hip, it's urban, it's ethnic.. It'll go over big with the rap and hip hop crowd, the younger generation. Hmmmmm...... So many ways to make a buck, and so little time... Thug - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: okay.. From: kieran (Aaron Dickey) Message-ID: References: Date: Fri, 16 Apr 93 23:55:36 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system alibaba (Nick Mordanzo) writes: > One question. Will the swimwear have that thong kind of suit? And will Sassy do a layout? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Aaron Dickey "Man, this's real beer-drinkin' Internet: kieran@mindvox.phantom.com weather, ain't it?" Hyuk hyuk." -- some guy I met at the 7-11, 26 Mar 93 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Um, that's called morphing, isn't it?" - Al "CyberChrist" Gore at SGI - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: okay.. From: ian (Ian Bainbridge) Message-ID: <7gy52B4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> References: Date: Sat, 17 Apr 93 01:30:17 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system kieran (Aaron Dickey) writes: > alibaba (Nick Mordanzo) writes: > > > One question. Will the swimwear have that thong kind of suit? > > And will Sassy do a layout? It's the 90's, of course they will! ian ################# @ #Ian Bainbridge # mindvox. # ############################################### phantom. # I am not responsible for my opinons, I don't know or care! # com ############################################################### - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: okay.. From: erikb (Chris Goggans) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Apr 93 05:50:32 EDT In-Reply-To: <7gy52B4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system First off: the New Jersey wannabes aka maverick, faded into obscurity as do all pieces of shit such as he. Secondly: Thug: I will need 65% of the gross take on the lod swimwear line, but will be giving an established client base, the lod logo, & assorted other tidbits that we all love so much. Its a great deal. Talk to my lawyer. Pat: don't talk any more about LOD. You are giving away all our best secrets! Noone is supposed to know about the techno band, nor the retirement village. Shut your damn mouth. (off to talk to marketers about MOD rap gear & LOD grunge apparrell) ->ME - - - - - - - - - Subject: bbbbutt.... From: lex (Lex Luthor) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Apr 93 08:59:54 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Don't I get any royalties for starting the whole damn thing??? Erikb: Have your lawyer contact my lawyer's lawyer. PAT: RE: The retirement village, I know a golf cart manufacturer who will get us them for a good price, plus will paint the Hall of Doom picture on them for Phree! --Lex -- Founder: LOD Enterprises - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: bbbbutt.... From: thug (Murdering Thug) Message-ID: References: Date: Sat, 17 Apr 93 12:06:25 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system lex (Lex Luthor) writes: > Don't I get any royalties for starting the whole damn thing??? Well yeah, but if you hadn't taken the name from DC Comics, I wouldn't be hesitant about investing in the LOD name. I don't need lawyers from DC Comics spoiling a good thing if it gets off the ground. MOD on the other hand is free of potential trademark problems, and so is the Spur Posse. > Erikb: Have your lawyer contact my lawyer's lawyer. Have them both contact the DC Comics lawyer. You know that the WWF had to license the name "Legion of Doom" from DC Comics for that wrestling tag team. It's not like anybody can go around make a buck off the name "Legion of Doom" without paying some extortion to DC Comics. Thug - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: bbbbutt.... From: sbranch (Kim Clancy) Message-ID: <8XT62B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 93 12:50:06 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system That's it! I can let a lot of shit pass on here, you guys can talk about skimpy bathing suits (I enjoy that part actually) and retirement villages, but when you start psot 4 letter words in here...words like GOLF!! I have to draw the line!!! There will be NO golfing discussions allowed on Round-table....first oand only rule....Golf ahhhhhhhhh! They practice that shitin the halls at wrok...gonna bring my kayak in and throw it in the water fountain next time they do that...NO GOLF ALLOWED! - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Raids From: erikb (Chris Goggans) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 02 Jun 93 17:42:07 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system When I was raided, I had the foresight not only to find out who was digging, but I talked to my apartment manager about the potentiality of someone coming around asking for information, and discussed the scenario with a lawyer and prepared him for my early morning phone call. Sure enough, i found that a University Policeman (from ut) had been trying to get my apartment manager to let him into my apartment WITHOUT A WARRANT! Thankfully she was smart enough to know she did not have to. And informing the lawyer of my impending doom, he gave me his home number in the event they raided at the crack of dawn, which they did. (Funny joke: University of Texas Police : You cant spell stupid without UTPD!) :) ->ME - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Victimless crime-- From: maccop (Larry Coutorie) Message-ID: <0uPL5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 93 23:50:44 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system RE: I honestly believe the government would shoot you for that if given halfd a chance. ->ME Chris, It was this kind of irresponsible mouthing that got you where you ended up. I was impressed by a previous post that sbranch also commented on - I thought you had perhaps grown up. Your comments are neither complete nor accurate. I was there. Perhaps you shouldn't post when you are stoned/drunk/having ego problems. The police must seriously consider information such as that you sent to Neidorf because they don't want to die for a stupid reason either, such as ignoring such a threat, it may have been inane to you but you've probably never been seriously threatened. You very probably believe a number of things about the government that a normally functioning person would not consider. As Rush Limbaugh says: "Words mean things." - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Victimless crime-- From: maccop (Larry Coutorie) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 04 Jun 93 00:26:12 EDT In-Reply-To: <0uPL5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Interesting... I read msg 514 after posting a reply to msg 491 (see msg 513) Once again Chris is neither complete nor accurate. If he was so well informed why wasn't he awake to 'get his gun' Goggin's comments about me are blatently false and libelous - and will be discussed with legal counsel. As many have said, the best place to elicit the truth is in court. - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Victimless crime-- From: toxic (Toxic Avenger) Message-ID: References: <0uPL5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Fri, 04 Jun 93 04:23:22 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system maccop (Larry Coutorie) writes: > Chris, It was this kind of irresponsible mouthing that got you where > you ended up. I was impressed by a previous post that sbranch > also commented on - I thought you had perhaps grown up. Your comments > are neither complete nor accurate. I was there. Perhaps you shouldn't > post when you are stoned/drunk/having ego problems. Nothing like a good personal attack of 'I am greater than thou' to start things out on a mature level... Nice going, copper. Part of the reason this fourm is here is to talk reasonably with each other and break down the barriers between the police and the underground. Maybe if we understood each other Chris wouldnt be where he ended up, or stoned/drunk/ego problems. Or maybe you could at least look upon him as more than the pond scum you make him out to be... Before talking about ego problems in the same sentence as a blatant put-down, you should look in the mirror at your own ego. > The police must seriously consider information such as that you sent to > Neidorf because they don't want to die for a stupid reason either, such > as ignoring such a threat, it may have been inane to you but you've > probably never been seriously threatened. Why the hell didn't they show up at a reasonable hour, and KNOCK like any other human being? I think that was a hell of a risk on your part. shit, look what happened when a foreign exchange student did knock, and what the courts thought of that. > You very probably believe a number of things about the government that > a normally functioning person would not consider. Yah know, maybe one of those beliefs are true? and if only one is right, then it is a worthwhile thought. Ill bet that you very probably believe a number of things about those in the computer underground that a normally functioning net.being (this is the domain of the net.being) would not consider. > As Rush Limbaugh says: "Words mean things." Well yes, how brilliant. But my friend, "Actions speak louder than words" -Tox ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Toxic Avenger | Let not the sands of time get in your lunch. Toxic@phantom.com | Cyberhippie, shaman and /|\ the 4 Final words of Ultimate Frisbee: janitor for the soul / | \ 'CATCH THE DAMN THING!' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - - - - - - - - - Subject: Maccop From: knight (Craig Neidorf) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 04 Jun 93 09:53:11 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Well Larry -- You weren't in the room with Tim Foley and Barbara Golden when Foley remarked that he hoped Chris would have a water gun near him when they raided him (so he would have an excuse to discharge his weapon). But I was there... The SS botched the entire series of cases and simply are ill-trained to deal wit computer crimes. - - - - - - - - - Subject: LE Training From: kcit (Ken Citarella) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 04 Jun 93 11:56:56 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system In response to the posting in #518, I'd like to ask this question, Craig: Let's assume you are correct about LE's ability to do compcrime cases. And, let's assume you were just given the opportunity and the means to do that training. What would you teach LE about computers? about computer intrusions? about the psychology and sociology of computer intruders? about how to distinguish (prior to meeting the target) the curiosity seeker who is into a system he does not belong on from the hardened criminal compromising telecomm services to support the narcotics trade? What motivations would you ascribe to the intruder? Etc., etc., etc. I mean this seriously. I am very interested in hearing your perspective on this matter. I do a fair amount of training and would like to hear what you say. BTW, I am an Asst DA in Westchester County NY, and an EFF member. Also an HTCIA member. Nice to make your acquaintance. kcit - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: LE Training From: falconer (Steve Copold) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 04 Jun 93 12:22:04 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system A few words about the preceeding posts: Having gone through the archives and having been on VOX since the beginning, I've read a great deal of what Chris has written. I agree with a lot of it and there is some of it I disagree with. I've never met Chris, but I think I'd like him if I ever met him. I've read some of Larry's stuff. I agree with a lot of it and some of it I don't like at all. I know Larry personally. I've worked with him professionally, and I like him quite a bit...enough to consider him a friend. The damned thing is, I don't think either of you have a clue just how much alike you are in so many ways! Chris, Larry got just as big a snow-job from the feds as you did...If you would really consider all the evidence, the fact that he was not named in the SJG lawsuit shows that his role fell into the gray areas. (no offense Larry) And, I believe he was being led around by the nose just as so many others that were involved. I don't think anyone had a clue (at that time) just what a bunch of lamers the involved feds and the telco folks were. If either of you wants a real villian to hang the noose on, have you ever considered the telco's...I'll bet Craig and Len have! Larry, you might consider a few factors as well, such as Chris'age at the time. (no offense Chris) And, the fact that his perception of the events that took place are very different from yours. I think you both believe everything you percieve as having taken place...but somehow, things don't quite square up. Chris has written extensively about the events that took place and who played what role. Larry, you've just scratched the surface from your point of view...Why not expound a little more? I wish the two of you would just have lunch somewhere and sort this out...I know it sounds crazy, but you just might learn something from each other. Chris, just don't go to Mother's! Larry can't order meat and it makes him nuts! Now, re: LE training...Thanks to Larry, 3jane and I were able to attend an LE training seminar in Dallas a few months ago. In many ways it was an enlightening experience. It's literally taken all this time for me to sort out my feelings about the experience. There were (Larry, correct me if I'm wrong) about 300 assorted LE types in attendance. As far as I know, 3jane and I were the only actual byte-heads that were there. The spirit of the seminar was good...Parts of the execution were good, but the vast majority of it scared the shit out of me!...And, I don't scare easily. Larry, despite what Chris or anyone else may think, has made (and I've personally observed this in him) a genuine effort to learn and grow where high technology issues are concerned...So had a few of the other that came to this conference...Most did not have a clue! Larry was one of the presenters and delivered an informed, well thought out paper on the future of high-tech crime. It achieved the level of excellence that it did because it was not written in a myopic environment. He actually talked to hackers and solicited their input and it showed in the quality of his product...He was the only presenter that bothered to walk even one inch in the "other guy's shoes." After having had the time to sort things out, I reached the conclusion that LE priorities are basically: pedophiles, drug dealers, pbx fraud, and high-tech theft of funds...hackers barely register on the scale. The problem is that MOST LE folks don't have a clue as to how to separate hackers from the other four groups of serious criminals...The wrong people, or perhaps better stated, not all of the right people were at this seminar. This forum is a good start, but what's needed is real contact in a serious environment that will promote genuine understanding and learning. Not a huge conference where every crazy on the net is given a forum, but a seminar, or series of them with serious representation from both camps and an open attitude toward what the other side has to say. My final analysis of the seminar in Dallas was that the LE folks in attendance probably learned little of value in terms of developing any real understanding. Probably just as little as attendees at a Ho-Ho Con learn about the real problems the LE guys have to deal with...Both forums are egocentric sessions designed to promote a great deal of self congratulatory back-slapping. And, THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT...AS LONG AS THAT'S NOT ALL THERE IS! Yeeech! This whole message is so uncharacteristic of my usual net-persona. It just came to me that maybe round-table might be a good place to put personas aside for awhile... -Falconer (Steve Copold) - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Oh Yeah From: wheez (Hal Weiner) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 06 Jun 93 10:51:01 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Clueless here just deleted himself from the Vox forum prior to this one, by hitting "alt x " instead of "control x" for the PICO editor. Naturlich, mein efficient procomm plus package took that as an instant beaming down to DOS. (so why can't the fucker download???) in any event, I wish to comment from the vantage point of not knowing what terrible Texas or federal crime we are talking about here.....and to second Falconer. I have read sbranch's posts with great interest in this forum and others. I am not familiar with maccop ( I tought cops used PC's,. not macs but it depends on what they can confiscate.) as you know, I am a lawyer. I have the same view of most lawyers, and cops, and prosecutors, as Tox has of lawyers. I try hard not to be one of the charicatures of the Bar that guys like Daumier, Reginald Marsh, Red Grooms, and Flagg like to pillory in their visual art.( though before Weight Watchers I did look like Rumpole). I think we need to (a) calm down about " I'llk see my lawyer " or " my solicitor will be around in the morning, slap slap" ( with Michael Jackson's other glove). Let's all have pizza some time at a 2boots. Let's calm down enough to stop threatening each other. We did not need to get on the Vox to have head to head showdowns at the VR corral. I intensely dislike cops who violate Miranda and prosecutorial mentalities in general. It is a learned dislike, from years of their using a different standard of what is right in getting the "bad guys". Criminals should be prosecuted.....all of them. But many are not, because of governmental status and the ability to influence the legal and judicial system. I take particular anger in the fact that the former president of the US , Richard Milhouse Nixon, seems to have gotten away with murder, or at least political assasination, and was pardoned by his party crony, Gerald Ford. As I look on my office wall today and see the plaque with Ford's signature on it thanking me for my participation in the Selective Service System as an Advisor to Registrants of their legal rights, I am reminded, smirkingly, that the Draft Board would not let me sit in on their deliberations, because I was a Commie traitor who might snitch when they fucked over some poor bastard's rights, usually a minority, who because he did not have a student deferment for the rich, was on his way to the southeast asian meat market to become US SATAY. They finally came around when I threatened to refer each and every one of these young men to the best draft lawyers I could find, and have them personally held responsible for selective enforcement of selective service. The mere fact that I was a Naval officer, not a CO; that I had served in between Korea and Nam; that I was nominated by that well known band of traitors, the American Bar Association ( which I since quit in disgust and which quitting may have been an error, since those of us who did gave up on inside reform), failed to impress them one iota. It was only when their own skins were about to get basted and barbecued that they came around. So much for social responsibility of the government and its agents. They were by no means untypical. Cf. Lyndon Johnson's "I am the only President you got" after being the subject of calumny when we found out that the Gulf of Tonkin resolution was a fraud he designed, probably with William Casey, based on a totally fabricated incident in Tonkin Gulf, to enable him to grab more war powers ( cf. " WarEz " ) and send more boys to die. He should not have been impeached.....he should have been executed. The lies of the Reagan and Bush administrations regarding the scum we support in Latin and South America is well documented in Soujourners magazine, out of Washington DC. Its latest issue pits the likes of Elliot Abrams, et. al., against the United Nations Truth Commission in El Salvador. It is nothing unusual. Business as usual for the government, which has become so unresponsive to the people as to render "democracy" a farce. Who cares who is elected if there are no real checks on their actions, and the media plays into their hands or it won't get cooperation, or channels, or FCC licenses( Cf. " WareZ, dudes."). Rather than trash the EFF, we should be trying to strengthen it and keep it independent of its funders, who may find that they have to give it the money they do, because some day they will need it bad. I recall the Nixon White House people going to the National Lawyers Guild, the only really radical group in organized law in the country, and trying to get them to teach the same jury selection techniques used by the antiwar forces like the Berrigan Brothers trial to select juries for the H20GATE creeps. And, please remember, that the H20Gate creeps did not do one thing that the Kennedys didn't also do. They just had the Republican stupidity to get caught. What is my point here? Simple. Before the LOD graduates decide that all cops are pigs, and they should be "offed", think of the post above about the officer with 20 years of service to the community gunned down by that 15 year old. Before the cops decide that all hackers, or persons who disagree with the government in any way, are traitors, criminals and worse, remember who it is you are supposedly serving. And, in all candor, the way cops and arrestees perceive any arrest, coming from a different prospective, is so subjective that the views of diametrically opposing parties may have validity without being libel, or slander, or malicious, in the dictionary as opposed to the legal sense. See Rashoman, that great Japanese film of a rape in medieval Japan seen through the eyes of the victim, the rapist, and others; and tell me, which version is the " truth"? Go forth and enjoy communications. Shantih, the Peace that Passeth All Understanding. - - - - - - - - - Subject: Larry: From: erikb (Chris Goggans) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 06 Jun 93 22:15:22 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Sir: I have not, nor will I ever directly make any commentary about any actions that you personally did or did not do. For you to interpret anything that I have stated about those involved in the raids upon my house and the events leading up to them as a personal attack of some sort shows some amount of insecurity, in my opinon. I in no way intended to slander the character of any Larry Cotourie, nor did I ever mention any name. Perhaps, since you have taken my comments so personally, you would care to expand upon exactly what it was that I said that was slanderous. And after that has been presented the forum can make commentary. And to answer your question as to why I didn't "get my gun" I didn't own one. Immature as ever, ->ME - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Larry: From: cudigest (Jim Thomas) Message-ID: <0yBR5B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Mon, 07 Jun 93 00:36:20 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system maccop (Larry Coutorie) writes: >Interesting... >I read msg 514 after posting a reply to msg 491 (see msg 513) >Once again Chris is neither complete nor accurate. >If he was so well informed why wasn't he awake to 'get his gun' >Goggin's comments about me are blatently false and libelous - >and will be discussed with legal counsel. >As many have said, the best place to elicit the truth is in court. Larry, most of us are here because we believe that, despite our individual differences and ideological opposition, we can appreciate and respect, or at least try to understand, those differences. Most of us also respect Kim's goal, which is to generate dialogue. You do us all a disservice when you engage in direct personal attack. Further, I judge that you abuse your power and position when you evoke the threat--and I presume it was only a threat--of a lawsuit against a poster here, simply because you did not like what he said. Who, precisely, did Chris Goggans libel? Your name was not mentioned. Even if one could construe that you were the subject, I read no personal invective that could even remotely be considered libelous. What was it that you saw that impelled you to invoke legal sanctions? I find your posts to be precisely the kind that tarnishes law enforcement: You engage in ad hominem, innuendo, bullying threats, general hyperbole that hardly generates a discussion. The message you send to me is this: "Don't fuck with me, and if I don't like what you say, I'll sue you." So much for rationale dialogue. Larry, Chris's pro-violence hyperbole is inappropriate, dangerous to himself, and unwise. Couldn't you calmly explain this in a way so that we could all learn from it? Your status and experience in law enforcement gives you both the knowledge and the credibility to provide a reasoned counter-balance. I've re-read Chris's and your posts carefully several times. If you believe that you have grounds for libel action against Chris, who never alluded to you directly, then surely Chris has even stronger grounds for legal action against you. You tell him he shouldn't post when he's "stoned/drunk/having ego problems." Was this necessary? Such personal assaults lower the level of discourse, and I believe that you owe him and the rest of us an apology for such a personal assault. Bear in mind that Chris feels justifiably victimized by the legal system. His hyperbole may be excessive, but if you are to be consistent, then you should also attack the hyperbole of law enforcement. Remember: Chris is simply using words to vent his rage at what he (and many of us) perceive as an injustice. Law enforcement used hyperbole to disrupt lives and discredit the value of law. As Steve nicely wrote above, most of us at least try to be reasonable. Sometimes were err and our passions guide our prose. Usually we can recover and get back on track. It would be helpful if you could share your experiences and insights along with your anger. If so, you'll probably find this a hospitable and stimulating forum for dialogue. - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: LE Training From: loki (Loki) Message-ID: <5VcR5B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> References: Date: Mon, 07 Jun 93 00:56:03 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system kcit (Ken Citarella) writes: > about how to distinguish (prior to meeting the target) the curiosity > seeker who is into a system he does not belong on from the hardened > criminal compromising telecomm services to support the narcotics trade? > What motivations would you ascribe to the intruder? Etc., etc., etc. > I mean this seriously. I am very interested in hearing your > perspective on this matter. I do a fair amount of training and would > like to hear what you say. > BTW, I am an Asst DA in Westchester County NY, and an EFF member. > Also an HTCIA member. > Nice to make your acquaintance. > kcit Heh I love statements like that. I know people who know more about the phone system than anyone short of the guys who wrote the software the switches run on and people who surviie by scamming like crazy to get money for food and a roof over there heads but I do not know a single case of a drug cartel paying to have the phoine system fuckedd with by a hardened criminal, hel they could just pay off Telco employees. Ummm Ken your the guy in charge of the "pumpcon" shit right? Still have the pumpcon poster hanging on your wall? - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: LE Training From: sbranch (Kim Clancy) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 07 Jun 93 11:00:46 EDT In-Reply-To: <5VcR5B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Just a personal note here about Ken....I find him to be one of the fairest LE types I have run across. Even the hacker he was prosecuting called and told me he was a decent guy. I think that says a lot. I am back from my vacation to California and see things have been quite active. I apprecaite the help of others to do what shold have been my job. I only have on rule on tis forum and that is no one is allowed to discuss golf....I'm debating whether we need another about the threat of court actions against folks but don't think even my rules can surpass laws...but one never knows. :) As Jim said, I think we need to discuss spific issues and not generalized. I believe that Chris is prtraying what he experiences as maccop is doing the same...perceptoins inthis cause will be very different even if it is the same incident. Chris and Maccop, I greatly enjoy your participation on here, I only hope you both stick around long enough to let us watch the development of your interaction. I think it maccops turn and I anxioulsy await your reply.. - - - - - - - - - Subject: Posters on my wall From: kcit (Ken Citarella) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 08 Jun 93 10:51:39 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Loki, Sure I have the poster. Why not? It is a bright day-glo purple and livens the place up. When a case, any case, supplies an interesting souvenier, I like to have it hang around for a while. Keeps the job fun. As to what you know about telecom fraud and hardened rackets, I am sure you are honestly reporting what you are aware of. No peoblem. Please extend to me the same courtesy, and assume I, too, am reporting what I know to be true. kcit - - - - - - - - - Subject: erikb From: maccop (Larry Coutorie) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 08 Jun 93 11:11:17 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system In regard to several previous posts, I offer the following comments: falconer (Steve Copold) writes: Larry, you might consider a few factors as well, such as Chrisage at the time. (no offense Chris) And, the fact that his perception of the events that took place are very different from yours. Steve, It was not his age at the time, but his age now that prompted my comments. These comments did not address perceptions gained the day of the execution of the search warrant but alleged facts discovered prior to that day. Considering this, and his experiences, I concluded one would have to not be thinking clearly to make such comments. I did note that a previous post by Chris impressed me but that seems to have escaped everyone. Thanks for the comments, you are indeed a friend. wheez (Hal Weiner) writes: I think we need to (a) calm down about " Illk see my lawyer " or " my solicitor will be around in the morning, slap slap" ( with Michael Jacksons other glove). Lets all have pizza some time at a 2boots. Lets calm down enough to stop threatening each other. We did not need to get on the Vox to have head to head showdowns at the VR corral. ...I intensely dislike cops who violate Miranda and prosecutorial mentalities in general. Hal, this is exactly the point. I too hate dishonest cops. Please understand, all a cop has is his professional reputation -- mine is excellent. The accusation that I attempted to circumvent the 4th amendments rights of anyone is professionally damaging to me and I intensely resent it. There is no truth to Chris statement that I attempted to gain illegal entry to his apartment. Chris writes: From: erikb (Chris Goggans) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 93 22:15:22 EDT In-Reply-To: Sir: I have not, nor will I ever directly make any commentary about any actions that you personally did or did not do. For you to interpret anything that I have stated about those involved in the raids upon my house and the events leading up to them as a personal attack of some sort shows some amount of insecurity, in my opinon. I in no way intended to slander the character of any Larry Cotourie, nor did I ever mention any name. Perhaps, since you have taken my comments so personally, you would care to expand upon exactly what it was that I said that was slanderous. And after that has been presented the forum can make commentary. And to answer your question as to why I didnt "get my gun" I didnt own one. Immature as ever, -- more (96%) -- ->ME Chris, apology accepted. Im not sure if you know me or not. We have met a couple of times and I have always treated you with respect and in a friendly manner. I have no animosity toward you and I dont take your computer activities personally. I appreciate your response. My reputation is obviously very important to me and I will do whatever necessary to protect it. All legal avenues I have begun to do so have been stopped. cudigest (Jim Thomas) writes: You do us all a disservice when you engage in direct personal attack. Further, I judge that you abuse your power and position when you evoke the threat--and I presume it was only a threat--of a lawsuit against a poster here, simply because you did not like what he said. Who, precisely, did Chris Goggans libel? Your name was not mentioned. Even if one could construe that you were the subject, I read no personal invective that could even remotely be considered libelous. What was it that you saw that impelled you to invoke legal sanctions? Jim, I agree that I could have omitted the comment about being drunk, etc. I just could not believe that after what Chris had been through he would put himself in that position again. Please be aware that this was not a threat, I had already contacted a lawyer and was prepared to sue. Re: The previous answer to Chris, my professional reputation is extremely important to me, particularly considering recent press reports of some police not being completely honest. Often all it takes is the accusation to destroy a reputation. My name was not mentioned, however I was the ONLY UT Policeman involved in the search warrant and could be easily identified via court transcripts. My comments about Chris state of mind were opinions (that you defend) and were not depicted as fact. A quote that has always been with me goes something like: A reputation, once damaged, can be repaired. However, people will always take note of the crack. I am willing to engage in discourse regarding almost anything. However, professionally, I wont comment on any case in which I was directly involved, sorry. Sorry for the long post, I hope this is behind us now. - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: erikb From: sheldon (Jeremy Day) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 08 Jun 93 12:29:20 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system maccop wrote in the previous message: > Please be aware that this was not a threat, I had already contacted > a lawyer and was prepared to sue. ... > I am willing to engage in discourse regarding almost anything. > However, professionally, I wont comment on any case in which I was > directly involved, sorry. Fine, so you refuse to participate in any kind of personal discussion, limiting yourself to cases in which you were not personally involved. I don't like that, but I certainly don't object to it. What I do find morally abhorrent is the fact that you seriously considered such legal action as filing suit against someone for engaging in such discussion, that kind of action only serves to further lessen my opinion of you, and to stifle the freedom with which people are permitted to speak in this forum (witness Chris' last post, I wonder if a laywer approved it). I am not alone in feeling that turning to the threat of legal action was, in this case, a completely inappropriate response. Even if you decline to comment on the case that was brought up, preventing others from doing so seems unnecessary. Now. On another closely related topic; I realize that this is old news, [well, by a day or two at least] but vox hasn't been stable enough to post it until now. The cypherpunks archive site at berkeley appears to be down. Apparently, CERT is responsible, as the maintainer of the site indicated on the mailing list that CERT had informed the university authorities that a 'pirated' piece of software was available there. The software in question was PGP. It seems reasonable to expect that in this case there were no direct threats of legal action, but such threats have been made against other sites in the past. It doesn't seem right that a piece of software can be made illegal, but that's life. I also noticed yesterday what may be yet another minor blow to computing and information freedom in the U.S., depending, of course on what forces are behind it. The S.Branch bbs (hello moderator:) now displays a message at login stating that all 'underground' files have been removed from the system. I will wait for an explaination as to what the reason for this sudden reversal of policy might be before commenting further. .sheldon - - - - - - - - - Subject: reputation From: tgitm (TGiTM Inc.) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 08 Jun 93 17:34:50 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system This is in response to maccop's hysteria about his reputation. How come this deal only works one way? What about all the "hackers" out there who are falsely charged and harassed? Most employers these days ask if you've ever been indicted or charged on their applications for jobs. Maybe you'd like a specific example. How about the police calling up the employer of a suspected hacker and saying that thisemployee is under investigation and is probbaly doing evil things liek stealing from his workplace. Lets just say that the said employee/hacker was then fired because law enforcement carries a lot of clout with employers even though no evidence was ever provided. Do you think that is fair? Do you think that hacker wil lever be able to repair his reputation or work history which was destroyed on the basis of an assumption that hackers are evil and flaunt the law? Anyways, my main problem is that while a law enforcement officer has a chance of winning a suit liek this, for us ordinary folk we have to put up with whatever slander comes our way. Information is Power - TGiTM Inc. tgitm@netcom.com tgitm@mindvox.phantom.com - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: reputation From: sulam (James Waldrop) Message-ID: References: Date: Tue, 08 Jun 93 21:12:03 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system tgitm (TGiTM Inc.) writes: > This is in response to maccop's hysteria about his reputation. How come > this deal only works one way? What about all the "hackers" out there who > are falsely charged and harassed? Most employers these days ask if > you've ever been indicted or charged on their applications for jobs. > Maybe you'd like a specific example. How about the police calling up the > employer of a suspected hacker and saying that thisemployee is under > investigation and is probbaly doing evil things liek stealing from his > workplace. Lets just say that the said employee/hacker was then fired > because law enforcement carries a lot of clout with employers even though > no evidence was ever provided. Do you think that is fair? Do you think > that hacker wil lever be able to repair his reputation or work history > which was destroyed on the basis of an assumption that hackers are evil > and flaunt the law? I find myself agreeing with both of you here. Professional reputation is obviously very important to someone who takes their profession seriously. I have a feeling most cops take their profession seriously, just like a lot of hackers take hacking seriously, so I think that maccop's reaction, while maybe a little extreme, is understandable. But I have also been on the other side of this fence (the hacking side). Two years ago I lost a job because the head of the CS department of a university I once went to took it upon himself to inform my employers that he thought I was a "menace to the network." This was because of an incident involving he and I that couldn't even have been considered hacking, at least not in the standard sense. I still can't walk into computer labs at this university because the security forces of the campus have been alerted by this individual that I am a "dangerous person"; yet homeless people are regularly allowed to panhandle throughout the labs. I have nothing against homeless people panhandling (except when they get abusive), but it seems extreme to threaten to arrest someone for sitting down at terminal. Not to mention the financial hardships I was put through by having to suddenly find a new job. So obviously this is an issue that can cut both ways. I think, however, that people in positions of authority (usually not hackers) are those who are listened to more often than the "undertrod." So while maccop is probably not in much danger of losing his job because of some random hacker saying he mishandled an investigation, that same random hacker is probably going to have a hard time getting a responsible job in the computing industry. Sulam There's a peculiar sort of calm that you get after having read a 300 page book in 2 hours. I think it's akin to being drunk, only more. - - - - - - - - - Subject: Computer Crime Investigation From: knight (Craig Neidorf) Message-ID: <982u5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Wed, 09 Jun 93 00:56:08 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system In response to post 519, Subject: "LE Training" by kcit (Ken Citarella): > In response to the posting in #518, I'd like to ask this question, > Craig: et's assume you are correct about LE's ability to do compcrime > cases. And, let's assume you were just given the opportunity and the > means to do that training. What would you teach LE about computers? > about computer intrusions? about the psychology and sociology of > computer intruders? about how to distinguish (prior to meeting the > target) the curiosity seeker who is into a system he does not belong > on from the hardened criminal compromising telecomm services to > support the narcotics trade? What motivations would you ascribe to > the intruder? Etc., etc., etc. > I mean this seriously. I am very interested in hearing your > perspective on this matter. I do a fair amount of training and would > like to hear what you say. I would teach them about what they need and what they do not need to be concerned with when conducting a search and seizure on a suspected computer criminal. I would teach them to look past the hysteria and hyperbole used and abused by media-glory seeking prosecutors (no offense intended, but look at Bill Cook). I would teach them to make distinctions between the computer hacker who is just looking around, and the corporate criminal who commits industrial espionage, sabotage, and steals money or other assets from a company by manipulating their computers. There is a big difference. And most of all I would make myself available to answer questions that I cannot conceive they would ask. I truly think a lot of the over zealousness of the law enforcement community comes from the fact that they think they have to really make this sound like a big deal because when compared with murder cases and the like, little computer prank investigation doesn't earn them much respect. So they come up with this "HACKERS THREATEN TO BLOW UP NUCLEAR REACTOR!" and so forth. In speaking about my case, Professor Jim Thomas remarked to me that I should not attribute to malice that which can be accounted for by stupidity. In Bill Cook and Tim Foley, I see both. There is no way an educated person could have looked at the Phrack text file and determined it was a program or in the least bit dangerous. They lied to a federal grand jury. I have read the transcruipts. They made the mistake of using the alleged victim as the expert witness and that is a MAJOR wrong. Did you know how Illinois Bell hid potential witnesses from us, people who had written articles about 911 systems for public magazines like Telephone Engineering Management? They lied to me and they lied to the American public. Why? Politics. Cook had been recently named the head of the new national computer crime task force after his successful prosecution of Herbert Zinn, Jr./Shadow Hawk. Zinn (and not Robert Morris) was the first person to ever be convicted under the 1986 Computer Fraud & Abuse Act (Morris was the first to be convicted under the act by a jury, Zinn had a bench trial). Now Cook needed a major public hacker figure to nail to send his message. So instead of waiting for a major crime to occur so he could prosecute it... he invented one where no crime even existed. And the Secret Service doesn't give credit where credit is due. I didn't learn until July 1990 (a week or two before my trial) that they had videotaped me and others at SummerCon 1988. And guess what... the very day I was at SummerCon was a date in my indictment saying I was committing crimes... and guess what... I'm on 15 hours of video on that date at an "evil hacker conference" and other than some under age drinking, there are no crimes being committed (except the invasion of privacy by the feds). Cook lied to the Court about this as well. In early motions, we had asked for, and the Court had ordered, all electronic surveillance of me be turned over for our inspection. The only reason we got it in July (5 months later), was because the government was hoping to make us agree to a delay in a trial date by attempting to focus our attention elsewhere. Their answer as to why they did not make us aware of the existence of these tapes when the court order went through? -- They didn't intend to use it as evidence. Oh gee, why not? This is what pisses me off. I could have gotten 5 years in prison alone, merely for the conference announcement that even invited law enforcement to attend. The SS video tapes me and their aren't any crimes and there was no meetings of conspiracy... and despite all this, I am still tagged as the bad guy by them. So Ken I would say that people just need to learn to see things as they are and not through the looking glass of a reporter or anyone else with an ego trip and an overactive imagination. I have spoken at many many many conferences, most recently at the Computer Ethics Institue in Washington, D.C. at their 2nd Annual Conference, and also at Surveillance Expo 1992, and last October in Chicago as the luncheon speaker for the MIS Training Institute's 12th Annual Conference on Control, Audit and Security of Information Systems. > BTW, I am an Asst DA in Westchester County NY, and an EFF member. > Also an HTCIA member. After my Now It Can Be Told confrontation with Don Ingraham where he completely distorted the truth about me and my case, I am not terribly fond of the HTCIA, but if Sbranch thinks you're ok then that is good enough for me. > Nice to make your acquaintance. Likewise, Craig Neidorf (knight) - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Umm Craig forgot a few things From: cudigest (Jim Thomas) Message-ID: <7D7u5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Wed, 09 Jun 93 02:26:05 EDT In-Reply-To: <766u5B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Larry-- Thanks for your candid response to my (and other) posts. Most of us can appreciate your concern for our reputations. My own concern extended beyond the comments to Chris and to the issue of freedom to speak openly, even foolishly. The threat of a law suit for what many of us find vague allusions, even if angry ones, can have a chilling effect of stifling the rest of us. In my own view, it is not that you have no right to become angry or to react with passion against what you perceive as an injustice. It is rather that you seemed rather quick to silence it by invoking legal sanctions rather than confronting it with a reasoned response, as you just did above. In this forum, as you've seen from the posts, you'll comments ranging from reasonable responses to mean-spirited nastyness. Some of us can agree with you on principle, but vehemently oppose the litigiousness that your initial post reflected. It is not that we support personal attacks on others, but that we don't feel that invoking law is the answer. As you say, it's behind us, but the spectre of a law suit against me for saying something you may *feel* reflects badly on you leaves me a bit queasy. This raises a few questions: 1) How free should one of us feel to use hyperbole in making our points or in expressing our views for those with whom we disagree? Much of the anti-LE rhetoric is posturing. However, much of it is in response to LE's rhetoric in defining the "hacker" menace. For example, just as Larry feels his reputation was tarnished by Chris, even though Larry wasn't mentioned by name, would I have a case against personnel who publicly labeled me as a "hacker?" Afterall, I'm mentioned by Tim Foley in an indictment, based on info given by Henry Kluepfeld, as a "hacker." Not by name, but by the same process of elimination that Larry used to defend his claim. Those who know me know I'm barely techno-literate. Further, as a well-published scholar and full professor, my reputation (not to mention career) is at great risk if I'm associated so directly with illegal activity. Should I sue? Should I be angry? Or, should I just laugh off the LE claim and use it as an example of ineptitude by over-zealous agents? The answer is fairly simple: Just as in Larry's case, I have no legal claim (and I'm sure that's what his legal counsel told him). The allusion was indirect and there is no demonstrable harm to reputation that can be shown. My point is that, while not justifying inappropriate speech, t'is far better to meet it with more speech. 2) Because of our positions and visibility, are Larry, Ken, myself, Pat Kroupa, Chris, Craig, and others "public figures?" If so, we're fair game to a great extent than others. Hence, we should expect a bit of flack. We needn't tolerate it, but our responses should bear in mind that our visibility acts as a lightening rod for those who disagree with us. 3) How can we engage in dialogue if those with whom we disagree are subjected primarily to criticisms rather than to questions and reasoned responses? It's not simply that the targets of flames (on all sides) will withdraw from an unpleasant and non-rewarding situation, but that those on the sidelines will also grow tired of posturing and no longer participate with comments or lurking. So, especially to Larry, I'd ask: What do you see as the greatest area of misunderstanding between law enforcement and the general population regarding the *handling* of computer crime? You have a sense of some of the concerns here. To what degree are the concerns grounded in reality and where are they in need of a "reality tuneup?" Sorry--this started out as a 15 line post..... - - - - - - - - - Subject: cudigest questions & a general comment From: maccop (Larry Coutorie) Message-ID: <2ssV5B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Wed, 09 Jun 93 10:30:12 EDT In-Reply-To: <8oRV5B6w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system First the general comment - fell free to say whatever you like, in general, about law enforcement. However specific allegations of wrongdoing without a basis in fact is something else. My intent to sue was based upon what I felt was necessary to protect myself, not law enforcement in general. cudigeyou might have a case against Kluepfeld for his comments in the affidavit, especially if the accusation is baseless. If the comment directed at me had been attributed to 'one of the cops' for example it would have been ignored. Being a 'public figure' does not make one 'fair game' in these sort of personal attacks - recall the suit of one of the tabloids by Carole Burnet who was accused of being drunk in a restaurant - she won. The greatest area of misunderstanding... I don't think the general population really gives a flip about the handling of computer crime cases yet - in fact a lot of LE administrators don't care much about it. LE should handle those cases as they should any other, from a shoplifting to a murder, responsibly. Anyone who goes off half-cocked to investigate a case is the only one really responsible for any repercussions it brings. The SJG case, despite attempts otherwise, should be viewed as a case of a citizen who was wronged making it right in court. Nothing was covered up because the USSS was involved and Jackson was 'made whole' as a result. In fact it probably, overall, helped his business in the long run. It was unfortunate that it happened in the first place though. This shouldn't happen when a case is professionally managed. There are some new aspects involved in the investigation of computer crime and many of these first came to light in a short study I did with the cooperation of some of the hackers on this board. Things such as background, training and jurisdiction are prime examples of traditional ideas that need re-thinking and I advocate such at every opportunity. I getting off the subject. Be assured I am not the type to yell SUE! at drop of a hat, hell I don't even like lawyers very much. By the way, mindo, I'll do my best to answer your questions. maccop - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Umm Craig forgot a few things From: redmond (David Redmond) Message-ID: References: <7D7u5B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Wed, 09 Jun 93 13:16:11 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Knowing none of the parties involved personally and judging by how things were presented here I must admit that the speed and vehemence with which maccop jumped on the concept of suing Mr. Goggans was surprising in the extreme. Taking what Jim thomas wrote and giving a impression of it below, I'm still left with the feeling that if Chris is immature and shoots his mouth off, he is by no means the only one on either side of the issues. How's that for tact wording? :) cudigest (Jim Thomas) writes: > 2) Because of our positions and visibility, are Larry, Ken, myself, > Pat Kroupa, Chris, Craig, and others "public figures?" If so, we're > fair game to a great extent than others. Hence, we should expect a bit > of flack. We needn't tolerate it, but our responses should bear in mind > that our visibility acts as a lightening rod for those who disagree with > us. Here I would have to disagree strongly with maccop and answer the question with a loud _yes_ you are fair game. Society works in this way, if you stand up and become visible then those who are sitting down will have something to say about you one way or the other. What you say when you're standing is a whole other ballpark, to use your list of names as an example I can't find anything Ken has said to be inflammatory or thoughtless and likely to inflame anyone except pumpcon attendees while Larry has through his own actions received a different response. Craig has always struck me as a person who was singled out and wronged and if he is a public figure I don't believe he has been or is expected to be subjected to the same set of standards that apply to Patrick and Chris. Craig speaks about particular issues and his views on them, where what he is speaking about is the subject of discussion. Most stories featuring Mr. Kroupa or Goggans stray to the facts for a paragraph or two but the focus quickly changes and it becomes a story about physical appearance, substance abuse, clever things that were said and then moves to the topic of this poetry of cyberspace angle in Pat's case, or women he has lusted after for Chris. If either one of them cared about this, its to be assumed they would modify what they say and how they act. Public figures make themselves public and whether the second set of standards that is applied to them is fair or not, its their call. - - - - - - - - - Subject: A note from Mitch Kapur From: alex (Alex Zelchenko) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 09 Jun 93 18:05:12 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Mitchell Kapor (mkapor) 9 Jun 93 (13:28) I decided to make one more attempt to bring a more balanced view on this subject to the mainstream press. Herewith is my June 21, 1993 Forbes column. Permission is granted to redistribute this electronically. A little perspective, please In Its Dec.21, 1992 cover story, headlined "The playground bullies are learning how to type," FORBES perpetuated a dangerous myth. This magazine blamed a new generation of "hacker hoods" for an epidemic of computer crime. It grates on me to see these two words- hacker and hood - used together. I'll begin by agreeing that computer crime is a real and serious problem. But the FORBES cover seemed to blur the distinction between theft and free speech, between adventuresome teenagers and crooks. Most hackers are just playing around or swapping information; only a minority are out to steal it. Hackers are not hoods, though a few may be. If I sound sensitive on this point, I have good reason. In the summer of 1990 John Perry Barlow and I founded the Electronic Frontier Foundation to challenge Secret Service seizures of computer bulletin board systems. Our goal was simple enough. We wanted to establish that the Bill of Rights applies in cyberspace as well as on Main Street. We wanted to help assure that law enforcement people, while fighting crime, do not violate the free speech and privacy rights of computer bulletin board users. We made one principle clear from the start: "Unauthorized entry into computer systems is wrong and should be illegal." Big high-tech rip-offs these days have to do with the theft of cellular and PBX codes. These can run up victims' phone bills into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. According to Donald Delaney, a New York State Police investigator who specializes in this area, major telecom fraud is typically committed by career criminals in their 30s, many of whom see it as more lucrative and safer than the drug business. Hardly your typical hacker. If the typical 17- year old hacker, gets caught stealing small amounts of phone service or breaking into a computer system where he has no business being, he's scared as hell, and ready to confess.. He's highly unlikely to do it again. These first-time offenders don't usually end up ever again on the business end of one of Dectective Delaney's warrants. There is no reason for bringing the full force of the law down on kids like this. So I was peeved at a FORBES cover that seemed to lump these kid pranksters in with hardened crooks. Such broad bracketing leads to excesses like those of the Secret Service in the recently decided Steve Jackson Games case. Federal Judge Sam Sparks found that the Secret Service illegally seized the private electronic mail of users of a customer relations bulletin board system operated by the Jackson firm.. At the trial, Judge Sparks roasted Secret Service agent Tim Foley for not making a simple investigation in advance that would have shown there was no cause to snoop on E-mail. The case demonstrates that accusations of computer crimes should be limited to cases involving seriously harmful behavior and injurious intent, not the mere suspicious use of a computer or a network. In Massachusetts, efforts to put such a balanced perspective into law are now under way. Governor William Weld has submitted computer crime legislation based on a report of his Commission on Computer Technology & Law, which I chaired. Commission members included law enforcement officials, such as a bulletin board-system literate district attorney, representatives from the computer and telecommunications industries and civil libertarians. The commission determined that much of what is labeled "Computer crime" would constitute a crime regardless of the particular means of accomplishment. Theft of a lot of money funds through manipulation of computer accounts is grand theft. Does the computer make it any grander? Our commission reported, and Governor Weld agreed, that changes to the law, where needed to plug gaps, are best accomplished by modifying existing law and building off familiar legal principles, not by passing overly broad and untested laws specifically covering computer crime. We found, for instance, that unauthorized access to a computer system is not, by itself, a violation of Massachusetts law. It should be. We therefore recommended an addition to the criminal law covering electronic trespass with penalties of up to $1,000 in fines or 30 days in jail. The proposed statute states that the requirement of a password constitutes the equivalent of a posted "No Trespassing" sign. The Massachusetts experience shows that it's possible for civil libertarians, law enforcers and industry experts to find common ground; they can address problems created by the spread of computers without compromising rights. This is the stroy the media ought to pay more attention to. Enough of these fantasies about dangerous teenagers stealing big money and compromising national security. - - - - - - - - - Subject: Commerce From: erikb (Chris Goggans) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Jun 93 11:41:53 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system If the Dept. of Commerce is SERIOUS about doing something, have them give me a call. Otherwise, let them read books, and shuffle through it playing the CYA game. :) 'course they will ahve to engage in a little commerce of their own. Nudge, nudge. Information wants to be free...except mine. ->ME - - - - - - - - - Subject: and now this from Full Disclosure From: alex (Alex Zelchenko) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 21:28:33 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 11:40 CDT From: glr (Glen L Roberts) To: editor Status: R PRESS RELEASE The wily ways of hackers, crackers, and other "fraud" artists will be explored on "Full Disclosure Live," the weekly radio program produced by the editorial staff of Full Disclosure, the country's leading publication on surveillance and privacy. "Full Disclosure Live," which has been airing by satellite over the Let's Talk Radio Network (Spacenet 3, Ch 21, 5.8 wideband audio) on Mondays at 10pm (central), will move to a new time, Sundays at 7pm (central) and be carried on WWCR shortwave (7.435mhz) that covers much of the world, including the United States and Europe, starting June 27th. As part of its expanded coverage, "Full Disclosure Live" plans to present a regular feature, "Forbidden Fruit," that will reveal secrets of those who penetrate communications networks, computer files, and credit card systems. "Once America begins to hear just how easily the privacy of their records can be invaded by those who have no right to this information," Full Disclosure editor and publisher Glen L. Roberts said, "perhaps the public will demand more security than they presently get." Believing that electronic bulletin boards offer a communications medium for those who know "just how flimsy are the so-called 'safe-guards' in these fields," Roberts said, "we plan to urge our readers and listeners to make their fellow BBS users aware of 'Forbidden Fruit' and invite them to provide background for it." Full Disclosure has opened its "Orwell Mail" system at (213) 896-1984 for anonymous submissions to "Forbidden Fruit." U.S. Mail submissions are also welcomed at: Box 903, Libertyville, Illinois 60048. Those calling are urged to give examples of how communications and computer systems are compromised. To assure anonymity, Roberts noted that a regular Los Angeles phone line connects callers to "Orwell Mail," not an 800 number that is capable of identifying the incoming caller numbers. He also noted that Caller ID is not available in California for non toll-free calls. - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: vox hackers From: lex (Lex Luthor) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Jun 93 09:59:46 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system I think the reason some of the ex-hackers are peeved about the current "hacking" of the net is that when we used to access systems that we should not have the sysadmins and users typically did not know we were there. If they did find out, it wasn't because there was any damage, and as far as I know, there was no denial of service. When vox had its' recent problem, I and everyone else was denied service for a number of days. There appears to be a certain vindictiveness and adversarial flavor to the current internet hacking attempts, whereas in the past, it was more a curious and envious flavor. We were curious about the systems and envious of those who legitimately had access. I am baffled by the motives for intentionally disrupting communications and computers. As for the LOD/MOD "war", there really wasn't one. That is one of the biggest myths around. So the point is, the reason some ex-hackers are complaining isn't because vox was accessed without authorization, it is because the apparent intent behind the intrusion was to disrupt operations. Personally, I could care less if someone 'hacks' vox, the eff, or anywhere else. It is only when they disrupt operations, modify or delete data, and have the intent of performing some sort of vandalism that I take notice. Notice that I did not say "when they invade someone's privacy", its not that I could care less about that because I am a strong privacy advocate, its that with my background I operate on the assumption that anytime I touch a computer, it can and may be monitored. The monitoring/privacy invasion may be anything from capturing EM emmissions from my monitor (tempest), wiretapping, covert re-routing of email and file transmissions, someone with 'shell' looking around and reading my email or implanting some sort of 'spy' program ala the old TOPS-20 systems. Not to mention someone coming into my house and turning on my computer to read my disks. Privacy invasion is simply a fact of computer life, although I don't like it one bit. Those who have not been online for 10+ years like me, erikb, digital, marauder, et al, probably don't give much thought to the privacy of their computer use, but recent events are helping to create an awareness of these problems. They may think it is too difficult or 'who would want to do THAT?", but believe me, there are plenty of people out there who get their kicks from these things and surreptitiously perform these acts on a near daily basis. For all the security and LE types who say: "oh how delightfully ironic, a hacker complaining about being hacked", it is apparent that they STILL lack an understanding of what hacking used to be about, the ethics involved (warped as they may have been), and the intent. These new attacks are a far cry from those perpetrated in the past. At least thats the way I see it. Lex PS: I just read the "lod tech journal #5" put out by that clown in Canada who is attempting to revive the lod. For the record this new fake lod has nothing to do with the old one and nothing to do with 'lod communications, aka lodcom'. - - - - - - - - - Subject: Landfill BBS From: loki (Loki) Message-ID: <9uqe6B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 93 16:02:43 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Hey Ken Cittarla you know I really miss the LandFill BBS, why dont you return the hardware to it's owner so we call all enjoy the BBS and its forum that is like this one. The Landfill was an excellent board and I think it is a waste having the hardware sitting in your office under the PumpCon Poster. Oh and I hear you say hi... - - - - - - - - - Subject: Kim's Board... From: falconer (Steve Copold) Message-ID: <87Ve6B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 93 17:57:54 EDT In-Reply-To: <9uqe6B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Well Kim, CNN Headline News just did a story on your board. The report went something like this: "Treasury Department BBS backfires as hackers steal information posted to help Treasury agents fight computer hackers." They said you had a copy of password cracker online and that unnamed individuals downloaded it and used it in some nefarious fashion. They went on to say that the "...board had been erased." It was a real bullshit report, but you might wanna check it out. -Falconer - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: Kim's Board... From: loki (Loki) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Jun 93 19:09:09 EDT In-Reply-To: <87Ve6B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Kim had the front page of the Washington Post. Too bad they made her look like she is a criminal (they will get my letter monday) and present her in a evil light practicaly accussing her of assisting hackers and people who enjoy spreading viruses to be nasty. I think it is so funny they refer to Sci-Fi writers as experts on the underground though. Crack me up. Subject: Re: blah From: alex (Alex Zelchenko) Message-ID: References: Date: Sun, 20 Jun 93 20:58:06 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system lgas (Laughing Gas) writes: > I thought the world generally recognized 8BBS as the world's first.. > > Mebbe I'm mistaken. ----------------------- Probably. Bill Blue himself has said that Suess and Christensen designed and built the first one. His was a close second. They donn't claim to have developed the idea first. Ted Nelson [Xanadu] in Computer Lib/The Dream Machine first published in 1974 mentions a similar idea; and in 1976 Peoples Computing had a nice litle piece describing how such a system could be used. Ward Christensen is most famous for developing XModem, the transfer protocol that is the grand-daddy of all the subsequent productions by other authors that were such tremendous improvements. ZModem is great. Ward never made a nickel from these accomplishments, the CBBS program or XModem. Had he not given them out freely he could have been as rich as Bill Gates. - - - - - - - - - Subject: First BBS From: lodcom (LOD Communications) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Jun 93 10:08:30 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system Not sure what bbs was the very first, but 8BBS was the very first Underground BBS. We should be getting a lot of the messages soon as the guy is still working on transferring them from his TRS80 to IBM at 300 baud. - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: VOX Hackers From: delafe (Alfredo De La Fe) Message-ID: References: Date: Mon, 21 Jun 93 16:15:25 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system alibaba (Nick Mordanzo) writes: > chemist (The Chemist) writes: > > > lyre (Lyre) writes: > > > > > delafe (Alfredo De La Fe) writes: > > > > > > > Personally, I think it is stupid to try and hack Mindvox. About the > > > > > > What we could do is something like what the MIT hackers had set up on one > > > of the early systems. > > > > > > If you typed CRASH, you would crash the system. They did that because > > > people were crashing it so much on purpose, they figured that if they mad > > > it trivially easy to do, no one would do it since there would be no sport > > > in it. > > > > > > It worked. > > > > > > > getting the new software with UID's online. > > > > Now that I know a little more about who at least some of the people are, > > I'd say fry them. To make it short I only know what Bruce said on the > > phone, but there are 3 or 4 people and each one of them is being treated > > differently based on what they did and what the motives were but the main > > person who is responsible for the recent shit here and all over the net is > > one of the same people Goggins called the cops on 2 years ago when LOD vs. > > MOD started. He's not exploring or experimenting, he's deleting sites and > > being a dickhead, which is typical. > > That's because MOD is full of dudes who act like they want to go to jail, > because every time you turn around some guy from it is hassling somebody > and what do they expect when they do that. > > > $%$%$%$%$%$%$% > ($) Ali Baba ($) > %$%$%$%$%$%$%$ Well, after a few messages, I MUST throw in my two cents. First of all, if Mindvox were to add a command called CRASH I garantee you that it will be used very frequently. The difference with the "MIT HACKERS" and a HANDFULL of so called "hackers" today, is that today those so called "hackers" tend to be malicious. They do not do things for the Challenge, and they don't really Hack for fun, they have a twisted perception of fun, which is watching people bang their heads agains't the wall after they delete 2 months work. OR- After they make someones life a living hell. Second, it's not that these "MOD Guys" are acting like people that "want" to go to jail, because they ARE gong to go to jail. It is no longer a question of "if" they are going, but "how long" they are going. It is actually pretty sad. Prison is not a merry place. I personally do not want to see ANYONE going to prison any longer than they ve to, if they have to at all. -Al Alfredo De La Fe' (212)-721-7601 delafe@mindvox.phantom.com - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: VOX Hackers From: lgas (Laughing Gas) Message-ID: <82Ti6B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> References: Date: Mon, 21 Jun 93 21:02:06 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system > Second, it's not that these "MOD Guys" are acting like people that > "want" to go to jail, because they ARE gong to go to jail. It is no > longer a question of "if" they are going, but "how long" they are going. > It is actually pretty sad. Prison is not a merry place. > Actually, I would say it depends on how you define "goingtjail." You can be indicted, tried, found guilty, and sentenced to a long time in jail, and still not go - if you get probation. A friend of mine was sentenced to a year in jail, but got instant probation and never saw the inside of a jail. Normally I wouldn't want to see anyone in jail at all, but these guys deserve it for one thing, and for another, hey don't go to jail, they'll be back where they were, sill hassling people. Laughing Gas - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: VOX Hackers From: elite (Elite Entity) Message-ID: <09cJ6B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com> References: Date: Tue, 22 Jun 93 03:56:44 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system lyre (Lyre) writes: > delafe (Alfredo De La Fe) writes: > > > Personally, I think it is stupid to try and hack Mindvox. About the > > What we could do is something like what the MIT hackers had set up on one > of the early systems. > > If you typed CRASH, you would crash the system. They did that because > people were crashing it so much on purpose, they figured that if they made > it trivially easy to do, no one would do it since there would be no sport > in it. > > It worked. > A[)[)enDum: MIT d0ez th1$ n0 l0ngeR. \/\/HAt lyR3 iz tAlk1ng ab0ut iz 20 YeArz ag0. s1mply \/\/1tn3$$ th3 cl0s1ng uV gNu/m1t (br1ll!anTlY c0vEr3d bY mr mArk0ff 4 tHE t1mez). 0f c0Ur$3 th1s waz n3c3sSary. 1 r3m3mBEr ppl t3ll1nG m3 h0w They w3re hack1ng gnu. h0w cAn u hAck a System wh3re th3 suPeruzerz pw = UZerNAme?!@!? buT 1'll b3t my b00tzzz tHAt 1f th3 'CRASH' c0mmAnd waz 1mplEment3d her3, th3 d1aluP w0ulD s1mply r1ng and r1ng and r1ng aFter a ph3w m1nutezzz. 1 th1n/< tHAt hum1l1ty hAz d1$app3arEd 1n hAkrz 1n the PA$t f3w yeArz. p3rHapzzz tHAt iz b3cAuze 1nc3 u c ur hAndl3 1n a magaz1ne aRt1cle @ 15 yRz 0ld u th1nk u r k-Rad 2 a T. l3x iz sl8d 2rdz t3ch stuff n0t "Mond0 m0sher iz f1ght1ng OFB, d1d u h3ar?". v1rTu3 iz th3 /<3) az th3y hAve leaRn3d what th3y wanT3d 2, the1r v1ew 0f the \/\/0rlD exPAnd3d & tHAt waz tHAt. n0w 1tz l3ss syStmz & 2 mUCh 0f a gam3. que lAst1ma! EE FFH! - - - - - - - - - Subject: Mark. From: erikb (Chris Goggans) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Jul 93 16:45:42 EDT In-Reply-To: Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system thug: don't deify the man... Lex, Jim, et.al.: Since most of this hits close to home for me, since I was th focal point for quite a bit of angst directed out of the New York area for quite some time, I will probably seem kind of biased in my following comments. Of all those involved with anything MOD, Mark certainly is one of the least menacing of the group. Having interacted with him since the late 80's in several different forums, and under several different circumstances, I do tend to agree that jail would be a waste of Mark Abene, and when taken out of the relative safety and security of the world, I think Mark would end up causing far more harm INSIDE jail than he ever would hve outside. I have several friends in jails. Federal, state, etc. The kinds of people they interact with know precisely what skills computer hackers posess that they can use. And, as everyone knows, hackers love to talk shop. Whether it means showing the guys how to hold down the pound sign for 2 minutes to disable the timer on the prison phone, whether it means getting a line on who will buy red-boxes and/or cloned cell phes, or whether it means finding people who REALLY know what to do with a wire tap or credit cards... hackers in prison will lead to crime. I'm not saying that there would be a Draper-esque scenario where Mark is threatened with harsh physical violence unless he spills his guts...noone I know hass ever had this happen. What I am saying, is that just through normal dialogue with other inmates, word will eventually reach someone who will know the right questions to ask, the right bargains to offer, etc.. I am mixed on my feelings about John & Julio however. I think that these guys would cut off their grandmother's fingers to sell the rings. Being in prison for them would give them the opportunity to find a much bigger market for the skills they already so eagerly want to market. (It pains me, but as much as I'd love the thought of these guys rotting in a cell, I know it wouldn't do a damn bit of good.) So what should happen? Give them jobs? Mark, perhaps...although his attitude surely prohibits any but the most tolerant of companies from making him an offer. And on top of that, a mutiple felony count? And a repeat offender? Not much hope. Knowing that, we again face the typical inner city hacker problem....forced into an unpleasant environment, with little or no chance of ever advancing out. Lured into crime by the illusion of power and the seduction of fast money. A vicious circle waiting to be drawn. It seems pretty hopeless to me. Send them to jail, (to send a message that crime doesnt pay, although as we have seen for nearly a decade, hacker busts deterr NOTHING) and educate the habitual criminals. Let them off with a warning and leave them to again discover shut doors and frustration, drawing them back into the one environ where they truly are in control and weild power...and get raided again. Sad. ->ME - - - - - - - - - Subject: Re: And here right in the middle of something.... From: delafe (Alfredo De La Fe) Message-ID: References: Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 02:01:15 EDT Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system cudigest (Jim Thomas) writes: > I tend to agree with Lex's comments. Also, making Mark serve time > would be a travesty. It would serve no purpose and simply cost the > taxpayers needless expense. For these types of offenses, altenerative > sentencing is far preferrable to doin' time. I would hope the judge > agrees, especially because the offense are not recent. > x > Why shouldn't Mark do time? It would be fun for him. All the food he can eat... EXCELLENT Medical benefits A JOB An area to work out Basket Ball, Track, Volly Ball, hand ball, etc... Televisions EVERYWHERE Private bathrooms and showers and what I am sure will be many a convicted hackers personal favorite is: The new Prison Telephone System! (ITS= Inmate Telephone System) Prison isn't what it used to be... (Still is a re BIG pain, it's hard on everyone, but hey, you have to make the best out of any situtation you find yourself in) Alfredo De La Fe' (212)-721-7601 delafe@phantom.com - - - - - - - - -